4 Wheel Alignment

[Fiona]

Anyone had their A2s' wheels aligned? Had mine done after having 2 new tyres, thought it would be a good idea. Took it to my dealer last week. Not overly happy with the results, one wheels camber was way out so they have moved the sub frame to compensate. Now from the front, it looks like the wheels are not in line with the body. Also some of the data was blanked out when I asked for the before and after reports.

Any ideas of where I can get all the target data spec from? Or anyone know much about this?

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[Will]

In your local tyre specialist there is normally a large chart on the garage wall where the fitter looks up the required settings.

Usually the front tyres are slightly toe-in, but I don't have any experience of the A2 settings yet.

If your car was pulling in one direction before and now no longer does this, then you can only hope they've done a proper job. But keep an eye on the tyre wear just to be sure if I were you.

[Stuart_D]

Fiona, if you do find out the settings for the A2, please could you post them on the forum here...

Thanks,

Stuart.

[img=left]http://www.a2forum.net/stuart.gif[/img=left]Stuart Diamond: (mailto:Stuart@Audi-A2.co.uk) A2OC Founder | Forum Administrator

2001 TDi SE: (http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/uk1.htm) Cobalt Blue Metallic | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD | Front Centre Armrest | Front Centre Tray

A2OC Website (http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/index1.htm) | 2004 A2OC Competitions (http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/comps.htm)

[Shaf]

Fiona,

I would thoroughly recommend a company called Pro Align in Northampton. www.pro-align.co.uk

Hope this helps

Shaf

Nov 2002 TDi Sport, Silver,Black/grey interior,climate. Replaced previous Mar 2001 TDi SE

[Fiona]

Thanks, Will. It is actually worse now! But they said it is the best they could do! It pulls to the centre of the road, very gradually. Hoping to go to the dealer today and ask a few questions as to why some of the readings are missing, it is the SAI that is on the before report but has been blanked off the after report.

Stuart, if I find out I will do.

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[Fiona]

Shaf, thanks for this. Any problems with alignment or tyres? Just wondering as your A2 is roughly the same age as mine. If you have had yours since new, did yours come with Dunlop SP9090?

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[Shaf]

Fiona, no problems with mine. I used Pro Align about 10 years ago when I bought a new set of alloys for my Golf GTI cabriolet, at that time they were about the only company that did 4 wheel lazer wheel alignment.

Yes, I've had mine from new and it came with Dunlop SP9090's. They are still on the car. I haven't had any problems with alignment or tyres. Having said that the steering wheel when driving in a straight line has never been 100% straight from day one. I haven't bothered taking it back.
As for the front tyres, I'm sure they are wearing more on the outer edges than they should be. I run them on 33 psi and this helps a little. I checked the Dunlops for cracking after reading about it elsewhere on the forum. Mine do seem to be cracking on close inspection, so keep an eye on that.

Shaf

Nov 2002 TDi Sport, Silver,Black/grey interior,climate. Replaced previous Mar 2001 TDi SE

[Fiona]

Think it was me who said about the cracking. When inflated the tyres looked only slightly cracked, but when they were removed, one of them was so bad it was showing the cords on both edges! The tyre guys said that this could be quite dangerous. So just be careful friend. Got Goodyear Eagles now, they were great in the wet today!

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[ianjohnsonws14]

Fiona

"It pulls to the centre of the road, very gradually."

If you mean it pulls towards the white center line on a single carriageway road then you have a problem. On a straight section of road with the steering straight ahead take your hans off the wheel and watch what the car does. If set up correctly and with no steering input the car should gently drift DOWN the road camber towwards the kerb. Careful it doesn't hit the kerb. If it pulls left strongly, or moves UP the camber there is something wrong with the set-up.

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.

[andrew simmons]

yep i would agree with the above statement!!
since i have had problems with my track alignment but it was more pulling quite strongly to the left never to the centre-line of the road.
When the car is on a level, un-cambered surface the steering will stay straight as a dye if the set-up is correct.
As to moving the sub-frame i would question Audi because that is usually a static frame and should not!! be moved.
All the adjustment should be done on the rear trailing-arm mounts since the rear wheels dictate how the front wheels align, the caster and camber on the rear wheels are fixed non-adjustable.
The caster and camber for the front wheels can be adjusted on the front suspension units themselves.
The maximum camber of the front wheels should be 4 degree toe-in at the top of the wheel this sounds alot but this is the spec for the front wheels.

SO i would take your car back get it sorted and don't take any rubbish from the dealer.
I think then go take it to an independant tyre specialist such as All-Audi or as Shaf said that pro-align.
i had my alignment carried out by Audi under warranty then had it checked by an independant Audi specialist using the old fashioned optical alignment just as accurate may i add!! conclusion A-o.k.

If you are going to get the alignment carried out and it is not under warranty it costs about £150.00 from Audi the optical alignment cost just for the checking about £25.00.

Hope you sort your problem out
Drive Safely!!

[21][?]:(

Keep in touch let us know of the conclusion.

cheers

andy.

A.D.Simmons

[Will]

You may even be able to get the check done for free and only pay if it needs adjusting. It's always worth asking.

[andrew simmons]

True!!
get as much as you can (obviously within reason) before handing over your credit card!!

cheers

Andy

A.D.Simmons

[Fiona]

Andy, can you get alignment done under warranty? As I had new tyres, which may or may not be because of the alignment being out, they are saying that it could be out for a number of reasons. I did have to pay, they charged £170+ vat, plus and extra half hour for adjustment.

When I asked why the SAI readings were not on the print out, they couldn't explain it. As far as I am aware (having 2 mechanics in the family!) they are not on the print out because the technician has blanked them! They are re-doing the alignment next week and I shall take it from there.

What gets my goat more than anything is that they make the balls up and I am the one taking my car back yet again. Don't they think I have anything better to do!!!

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[smartboost]

It sounds like they don't have the skill to use their own equipment!

[Fiona]

Tell me about it! Still trying to find out what skills they actually do have! One thing for sure it ain't customer services!!!!

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[KAOD]

Took my car to Whites of Camberly for its first service and was told that the mechanic would not do a road test due to the rear tyres being very badly worn on the inside edges He suggested two new tyres and a two hundred pound four wheel alignment this is almost exactly the same problem as Fiona. As I have the same model car as her with the same tyres,Dunlop sp9090, I think something is wrong somewhere. Its very spooky because a while ago I had the same front wheel ABS sensor wiring problem as Fiona. The fiasco that I had trying to get that put right Is a whole story in itself. I do not want to go through the same problem as Fiona with this wheel alignment thing. And any way two A2's with very similar milages with the same tyre problem and the same wheel alignment problem I'm wondering whether the alignment was right in the first place. Perhaps the same incorrectly set up robot in the factory put both our cars together? Surely we should not be expected to pay for new tyres and an expensive alignment when the tread on the good part of the tyres is very good.I feel a good moan at Audi customer services is called for.Anyone have any views on how far I will get? R.J.O

http://www.freewebs.com/tom25489/Cars2.JPG

A2 1.4SE Silver,Sports steering wheel,electric rear windows,satellite trim. And now :-
A2 TDI Sport,Amulet Red,Opensky roof,Symphony audio,climate control,front fogs.

[maersk]

Front wheel drivers usually have slight toe out as the action of driving the wheels toes in the suspension and tyres. Rear wheelers have an initial toe in set up as it pushes the wheel out into parallel as it drives.
Cant find any info on settings though. Usually 1-3mm. Nothing definite for A2.

NEVER attempt a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
A2 1.4 SE TDI replaced with A3 2.0TDI DSG, the transmission of the future - today.

[andrew simmons]

Fiona
yes you can get the alignment done under warranty.
I had a problem with my ex-demo Audi A2 TDI SE where the inside edge of the front tyres had nearly gone bald.
Took it back after doing 6000 miles and complained spoke to the chief mechanic and they put 2 new tyres and carried out a full 4 wheel alignment and apologised. free of charge.
Took the car back after 500 miles and complained again the alignment was not good enorgh, drove the mechanic out and he made a remark saying it was within Audi spec i stopped the car after having waited for 2 weeks for Audi to book the car in and Said "well it not within my spec sort it out" with that the mechanic said " lets go back and i will have a look at it".
i got permission to go and align the steering to my spec.
All the diplays showing when everything was in line went to RED meaning everything was out of Audi tolerance.
There were a few frowns from all the mechanics involved.
Waited 2 hours the Mechanic came back apologised and said the car has been checked all the alterations had been carried out and they had checked all the suspension components just to make sure everything else was o.k. free of charge.
Fiona Try and get your money back if you can
If this problem has been here since you bought the car you have not caused any of this it is most definitely under WARRANTY!!

Hope you can get it sorted

Cheers

Andy.



A.D.Simmons

[ianjohnsonws14]

KAOD & Fiona

There should be a number/date of manufacture on your car somewhere - possibly on the big label which indicates all the options fitted. Comparing numbers will tell you if your cars came off the line together.

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.

[Fiona]

Thanks All. Went back to my dealer and asked why some of the readings were missing and after head shaking and shoulder shrugging it was booked back in last Thursday. When I got there the 'senior technician' came out and said that all the readings were within tolerence and SAI and Castor (the missing readings) were not on the after report because this cannot be altered. Is this true? If so why was it on the before adjustment report with target data beside? I did get the castor reading this time and it was not within tolerence, but they just said that it could not be adjusted so thats that! I waited for my car to be done and it took just over an hour, but Audi have a standard charge of 2 hours! Apparently this is because some models take longer than others - so why are Audi unable to make a scale charge for the different models if they know this?

Any suggestions on what my next step is? Know what I'd like to do with my tyres that were knackered....

Oh and another thing, sorry to rant, the 'senior technician' said that my tyres that were knackered and split was nothing to do with the camber being so far out, wouldn't make any difference!!! The first guy said that WAS the cause!!! Lord help us.

Last thing, they have a huge poster all about customer service stuck on the wall, perhaps they should read it too...

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[ianjohnsonws14]

Have you asked them why they have a castor tolerance if it cannot be adjusted - Items where you cannot adjust are normally the rejects that do not pass inspection at the factory.
Have they said how this could have changes since the car was built, if it hasn't then the car dids not meet Audi's standards as new and by their standards was not merchantable quality!
Has the car ever been in an accident that may have caused these changes?
May be worth getting an AA/RAC/Manufacturer report on the tyres (manufacturers will normally provide a brief report on premature failure free), but do not dispose of them yet. How many miles did they do and how old were they (there will be a date code on the tyre somewhere) - could be much older than the car.

I would have a long and loud discussion with the Service Manager on a busy Saturday afternoon in the middle of the showroom. But then SWMBO would dis-own me - again. If that didn't get some attention would then write to the GM of the dealer.

Good luck

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.

[maersk]

Majority of modern vehicles are not adjustable in castor or camber.

[Fiona]

Hi Ian,

The tyres had done 19k. Loads of tread in the centre and worn on the inner edges. Had the car since sept 02, new. Hasn't been in an accident. I have damaged one wheel, very recently, but not at speed, just when I parked I scraped a broken kerb, certainly nothing that would put the adjustments out that much?

Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[ianjohnsonws14]

These may help before you engage Audi again:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010808.htm

http://www.artsautomotive.com/thealignmentstory.htm

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0pda6/id39.html

Looks like either it has never been right or something has been bent or moved.

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.

[smartboost]

What are the following 5 angles Fiona?

Front toe
Front camber
Front castor

Rear toe
Rear camber

They might be something like 1.2 degrees, 0.2 degrees, 7 degrees, 1 degrees, -2 degrees for example. However, these ones are not for the Audi A2. They are from a different car altogether!

[Fiona]

The values are:
Rear camber L -1.4 1.29
R -1.5 -1.28

Rear Toe L +0.1 +0.10
R +0.17 +0.12

Front castor L ? +4.44
R ? +4.37
SAI L ? +13.55
R ? +14.07

Front camber L -0.53 -0.37
R -0.41 -0.54

Front toe L +0.08 -0.06
R +0.04 -0.07

The left readings are after the first adjustment and on the right when I went back a week later and straight off with no adjustments. Obviously the decimal point should be a degree symbol - but can't remember how to do that on my keyboard!!


Fi

2002 TDi Sport Cobalt Blue, winter pack, leather, rew

[smartboost]

Interesting set of figures. Is the Left Rear Camber figure of 1.29 a typo? I guess it should read -1.29

The front toe angle doesn't look right, but at least it's easy to adjust. I guess -1 degrees would be more appropriate.

These 5 figures don't tell you everything though. For example, whether the front wheels are inline with the rears.

To summarise the figures:

Front
Toe 0 (don't think this one is correct)
Camber -0.5
Castor 4

Rear
Toe 0
Camber -1.5

I guess the tolerance for most of these angles is +/-0.5, with +/-1 for the Front Castor.

[ianjohnsonws14]

Would be worth posting these on http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/threads.htm?pg=0&f=4

The advice there is usually very good.

Ian

2002 1.4 Petrol SE, silver with climate control for SWMBO, Honda Accord Tourer 2.2 iCDTi for me.

[smartboost]

The 0 degrees front toe angle may be ok, because you were getting wear on the inside of the tyre before.

As the A2 is front-wheel drive, the 0 degrees angle might become 1 degrees while on the move when the engine is pulling the car forward.

So to summarise, there is no need to adjust the front toe angle if the steering feels ok when cruising.

[chivers]

I took my car to an independant tyre specialist with a proper 4-wheel optical alignment jig. He diagnosed excess camber on one side, which means that the tyres are further apart at road level than at the top. This had led to excess tyre wear on the inside of the tread. He said camber is not adjustable.

I showed this to my Audi dealer who smiled and said the specialist did not have the adjustment tool. I watched the mechanic repeat and confirm the diagnsis. He slackened three bolts on the side that was faulty and used a special tool similar in function to a pit prop to correct the camber whilst watching the measurements change. Took about 40 minutes and cost about £40 (in Belgium.)

I asked about a warrenty claim. He said that officially he could put in a claim up to 10000km, ie 6500 miles, after which the factory would not reimburse him because customers are expected to identify manufacturing faults by this distance.

My Audi dealer said rear wheel alignments are impossible. The complete axle has to be replaced. If the alignment is outside the factory limits then either the axle was bent when the car was assembled or it got bent some other time.

Chivers ':)'
'02 A2 1.4TDi SE