I want sat nav!

[Stuart_D]

I am toying with the idea of buying a sat nav system for my A2.
I am currently completely stumped as to what option to go for. The choices that I can afford are:

1) Garmin Streetpilot III - this is a standalone system that does not require installation and therefore can be moved from car to car. It has a colour screen and also speaks the instructions to you. The disadvantage of this is that it is highly visible and a potential risk for smash and grab thieves and also means sitting on top of the dash which I think is a bit messy. I am also not sure of reliability with this if it is not installed in the car. Info on this product: http://www.garmin.com/products/spIII/

2) The other option for me is an installed din size unit with a separate cd changer. The options are a a Sony MEX-100NV - this is a very nice unit and even has changeable colours from yellow to black/red display colours to match the A2. More info at: http://www.caraudiodiscount.com/acatalog/Navigation.html
Alternatively, the Blaupunkt TravelPilot DX R-52. More info at: http://www.bluespot.co.uk/stock/dxr52_b.asp

Help!! What should I go for?

Has anyone ever installed sat nav themselves? I am fine at installing stereos etc. My only problem would be locating the pulse input from the speedo - does this have to be done professionally or can you do this yourself?

Thanks,

Stuart.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[DaveS]

Whatever you get make sure you try it out as much as you can before purchase - looking for ease of use, and quality of information given (particularly voice).

We have the SatNavPlus system in our A2, only after I had a playwith an A6 with the system installed.. The biggest benefit from teh 'Plus' version being that the 5" screen makes it reasonably easy to program your journey. However in use its the voice instructions and the dashboard logos that we actually use not the map, both of which are excellent.

The underlying system in the SatNavPlus is a TravelPilot DX. If you already have DIS it might be that you could integrate the Blaupunkt in and get the dashboard direction logos as well.

Dave

1.6SE

[Stuart_D]

So the A2 must definitely generate a speed pulse then as some cars don't and have to have one of their wheels magnetised in order to have sat nav fitted.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[msmorley]

Hi Stuart,

Knowing nothing about the integrated systems I'll leave that to others but having recently upgraded my handheld GPS to suit my new car I've a couple of comments to make on those... :)

Quality of maps:
The NavTech maps that come with the SPIII are, in the main, very good and Garmin allow you to preview the map data on their website so you can see whether it is suitable for your purposes. All of the integrated systems I've seen have had good data for main roads but seem to lose the plot once you get to smaller roads - although I'm sure this must have changed since I last looked at them.

Memory
The SPIII comes with removable (but proprietary) memory cards. To give you some idea of the capacity you need, the entire UK from my copy of CitySelect (which is different to CityNavigator that comes with the SPIII) occupies 80Mb.

Automatic routing:
Garmin's SPIII and GPS-V are the only handheld machines able to recalculate routes on the fly based on the map data. Very useful :) I have to assume that integrated systems do this too? The directions the SPIII gives are clear and well-timed.

Reception:
I enquired about this when I first joined the A2OC - as my A2 has yet to be delivered :( I can't comment on whether the SPIII gets good reception sitting on the dashboard. My solution has been (or rather, will be) to attach an reradiating antenna to the rear window (powered by the rear cigarette socket) which should ensure good reception at the front.

Power supply:
The SPIII is very heavy on batteries because of the colour LCD - so you'll be wanting to use the cigarette lighter adapter. Given that you think having the device on the dash is a bit messy, I don't imagine you'd be too enamoured with a power cable trailing down to the (poorly sited IMHO) cigarette lighter socket. If you don't use the adapter, you don't get the speech: the speaker is in - and powered by - the adapter.

Security:
I hadn't, I confess, considered the smash'n'grab aspect of having the GPS on the dash - I hope this sort of crime isn't rife in Devon [B)]. I wonder how easy it is to break the quarterlight behind the A pillar. Of course, if you use a reradiating antenna or an extension cable for the built-in antenna you can mount the unit just about anywhere.

Having looked long and hard at the SPIII I ended up going for the GPS-V instead. This has a monochrome screen, lacks the voice prompts and has a fixed 19Mb memory capacity. On the upside it has the same routing capabilities and has a much, much healthier battery life - works well on a couple of sets of rechargeables.

I hope this is of some help [:I]


Cheers,



--
m. Azure Blue 2003 A2 1.6FSI SE with OpenSky, ECC, DIS, Isofix, ERW, Symphony II, Space-Floor-Box, Winter Pack and Auto-Dimming Rear View thingy... Jan 2003 :(

[Stuart_D]

That was extremely helpful, thanks.

Does the GPS-V calculate your position fairly quickly?

I presume you needed the reradiating antenna because of the heat athermic non-reflecting glass in the front?

I just popped out at lunchtime to a local audio dealer and had a look at some of the units there.

The Garmin is very tempting as no install is needed, but lets face it, no one wants wires trailing everwhere.

I'm still stuck!

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[msmorley]

Stuart,

With respect to calculation speed and assuming you're referring to initial acquisition times, I don't think you'd notice a difference in peformance between the two Garmin models. To give you an idea, my GPS-V has just taken 40 seconds from cold (unused for a week) to get a 2D fix from three satellites and a further 10 seconds to get a 3D fix from six. The same procedure repeated a minute later and it took just 7 seconds to get the 3D fix because the satellite ephemeris is now up-to-date.

I have a reradiator because my previous GPS (a Garmin Legend) is designed for hiking and uses a patch antenna which only works well if the device is held horizontally - not much use for giving you directions in a car. The reradiator allows me to stand the Legend up so I can see the display - much better ;) Without it, the reception in this position was unusable. I suspect I don't need it for the GPS-V - but I will give it a go when my car is <s>retrieved from the bottom of the Channel</s> delivered later this month.

One web resource that you may have chanced upon is http://www.gpsinformation.net which has excellent reviews of both the GPS-V and the SPIII and automotive GPS systems in general (albeit biased towards the American datasets).

One further thing that may tilt you in favour of the handheld - apart from being able to use it outside the car - is that the Garmin supports the EGNOS (WAAS) GPS correction system that should be going live across Europe later this month. These should offer significantly better positional accuracy than GPS on its own - a bonus if, like me, you're a gadget freak (aren't all A2 owners?) [:p]

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the wires thing - my Lupo's system is a total lash-up: I soldered everything together... no one told me you could buy socket doublers for cigarette lighters [8)] My new system will have no wires except for those in the boot.

Cheers,




--
m. Azure Blue 2003 A2 1.6FSI SE with OpenSky, ECC, DIS, Isofix, ERW, Symphony II, Space-Floor-Box, Winter Pack and Auto-Dimming Rear View thingy... Jan 2003 :(

[edited for the usual poor spelling, grammar, factual content etc.]

[Stuart_D]

Can you get an external aerial for the SP III? I suspect that it wouldn't work in the A2 without one. I once bought a GPS sleeve for my palmpilot and found it wouldn't work inside the A2 so I sent it back. Shame really.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[DaveS]

Automatic re-routing IMHO is a must have with a navigation system.

When I tried out the A6 with SatNavPlus I deliberately went off route using some short cuts I normally use(it passed). It means that if you have a rough idea of which direction you should be going you can take to the back roads either by choice of because of jams and then let the navigation re-plan the hourney accordingly.

In addition the TMC information (broadcast on Classic FM) should allow some form of dynamic routing based on traffic info. The TravelPilot DX can do this but it needs UK CDs with TMC codes - currently only availble in Germany/Holland. Toyotas system already have this.

Dave

1.6SE

[msmorley]

There are a number of external antenna options, both Garmin and third-party, for the SPIII and many of the other Garmin devices:

The standard antenna can be detached from the GPS and can be used with an extension lead that terminates in a suction cup to attach to the windscreen. The cable and connections are standard co-axial/BNC so if you have some redundant network cables lying around...
(Garmin p/n: 010-10144-00 - about £18)

There are third-party and Garmin-made amplified antennae which take their power supply directly from the GPS which is rather convenient. Some of these have got magnetic mounts which allow you to attach them to the roofs of some (lesser ;)) cars. £35-100

And the other option is, of course, a re-radiator which doesn't require a physical connection to the GPS. £45-55.

Cheers,



--
m. Azure Blue 2003 1.6 FSI SE with OpenSky, ECC, DIS, Isofix, ERW, Symphony II, Space-Floor-Box, Winter Pack and Auto-Dimming Rear View thingy... Jan 2003 :(

[Stuart_D]

Have you got any opinions on the VDO Dayton MS3100 as an alternative?
I can get it for £959 inc vat and fitting.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[netlinker]

I would recommend that you also consider a system based on a Pocket PC system. These have come a long way last year and offer more features than a Garmin.

TomTom is considered to be one of the best systems and apart from TMC can easily compete with the built-in systems.

Have a look at this site: http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/

[netlinker]

Perhaps this will convince you:

http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/tomtomnavigatorsw.asp

The new Bluetooth GPS (no more cables) is also nice ho have:

http://www.pocketgps.co.uk/emtac.asp

Said to work even in the glovebox of a car. Should have mine next week.

[deheld]

Stuart,

I'm very enthousiastic about my VDO Dayton MS 5000.

It works great
it's very accurate
the maps are current and are frequently updated
It's easy and intuitive to use, no need to read the manual
Replanning of a route is automatically
The screen is very good, day and night
When combined with the MT5000 you also get traffic information
In the netherlands all Audi dealers are also VDO Dayton dealers

My advise would be to try the system you're going to buy. A coworker of mine bought a Mitsubishi with builtin satnav without testing it. It's horrendous, it's difficult to use (and I'm a techie) hard to understand and the maps are from the roman era. The result is that he never uses it, a waste of money.

Good luck with your decision.

Dennis de Held

Amulet Red 1.4 Tdi

[Stuart_D]

netlinker - thanks for the feedback but PocketPC handheld GPS systems do not work in A2s without an external antennae - or atleast it did not work in mine due to the windscreen which doesn't let the GPS sugnals in.

Dennis - I saw you have a VDO system in your photos on the A2OC site. I'm now veering towards VDO due to cost and value for money. Is your monitor detacheable for security?

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[netlinker]

According to the reviews the reception quality of the Bluetooth GPS is in an entirely different league. In planes where you have heated windshields other GPS receivers don't work, whereas the Bluetooth GPS does.

Anyway, I'm getting mine next week (or perhaps the week after next). I will keep you posted on the reception in the A2 (already have the Pocket PC and TomTom, now only the GPS is missing).

[Stuart_D]

You can always by a booster or external antennae if it doesn't work.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
Have you joined up yet?
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[Stuart_D]

Update: I'm almost 90% sure that I will go for either a VDO Dayton MS 3100 (black & white) or a VDO Dayton MS 5000 similar to Dennis's one (http://www.audi-a2.co.uk/europe3.htm). I'm also planning on buying the TMC module with it. This can detect traffic reports and reroutes you accordingly.

I just need to find somewhere that can demo them for me and get some final prices for supply and fitting.

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
It's not too late to register to come to the A2OC social!
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[deheld]

Stu,

Too bad you don't live anywhere near to Rotterdam, also too bad that I'm not attending the meeting :(

Yes, the monitor is detachable, the only thing left is a mounting thingy and a cable.

I went for the 5000 because it's a separate system and can be combined with any radio. Most cd based satnav radio systems cannot navigate and play a cd at the same time. Only the system from becker can do that.

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask.

Dennis de Held

Amulet Red 1.4 Tdi

[Rob Earl]

I'd just like to say that the Blaupunkt system I have in my Punto as standard allows CD's to be played whilst sat-nav is in use. My CD player is 5 disc DIN size mounted under the main unit.

1.4SE petrol in Merlot Red, Biege interior, 16" 5 spoke alloys, DIS, Open Sky, Elec rear windows.

[Stuart_D]

Rob - which Blaupunkt system and changer do you have?
Any idea of what you paid for units & fitting?

2001 TDi SE | Open Sky Roof | Kenwood Mask CD
It's not too late to register to come to the A2OC social!
www.Audi-A2.co.uk | www.A2Forum.net

[Rob Earl]

I know the sat-nav is a Trvel-Pilot system. It all came as standard fitment so I'm not 100% on costs. I think a similar headunit is approx £800. The screen is only black/yellowish, not colour but she does speak with a lovely voice.:D

1.4SE petrol in Merlot Red, Biege interior, 16" 5 spoke alloys, DIS, Open Sky, Elec rear windows.

[deheld]

Stu,

When you're checking out satnav systems be sure to take a look at teh systems from Becker. I have a Becker Mexico Pro radio and I'm very pleased with it. It has a nice minimalistic design (no galloping horses on the display) and functions excellent.
Becker is mostly sold with premium brands like Ferrari and as an OEM version in Mercedes.
Currently they have the Becker Traffic Pro which is a DIN based navigation system with no external monitor. The advantage is that Beckers has a cd with the whole of europe on it and that it offers a dynamic route calculation.
They also have the Becker Online Pro which is a combination of a radio, cd player, navigation system, cellphone and a wap browser.

That would mean that you actually will be able to check the a2oc site from within the a2 !!

Dennis de Held

Amulet Red 1.4 Tdi

[Paul]

Dave. I have just taken delivery of an Allroad which has the SatNav Plus system installed. What a toy! Great fun being told how to get home!

I have also been researching the ability for the system to use the TMC facility to give dynamic routing (to avoid traffic or problems). From what I understand, the TravelPilot CD must be coded to work with TMC, and so far they are not (for the UK). I don't know if this means that they will be updated and that the car will eventually be able to do this, or if work would need to be done by the dealer, or even if it won't ever be possible.

This is a bit annoying, as I rely on a Trafficmaster unit which I would rather not fit. basically, I would have to do the job myself, comparing traffic information with the nav instructions.

Any ideas or info??

Paul
1.4TDi, leather, Open Sky, BOSE, 6 CD, alu trim, cruise, DIS, etc. etc.

[frido]

@Paul:

I had an allroad for a weekend last summer, the system is capable of using TMC, it may be that the UK CD has to be updated... here in Germany the TMC worked really well!

Bye, Frido.

----
A2 1.2 TDI 2002 silver, CC, DIS, Apple iPod :-)

[DaveS]

Paul,

As you may know the TMC codes need to be on the navigation CD for the SatNav Plus system to provide dynamic navigation. All TravelPilot DX systems beyond a certain software version can cope with TMC, as long as its on the CD. Cars of 1 or 2 years old should be OK.

I asked Teleatlas last October (who supply the disks) about TMC codes on the UK disks and they said it would be available in the very near future. So hopefully it will be on the 2003 disk.

Its annoying when the signals are being broadcast and the unit is able to process them. Just itching to hit that Traffic button.

I too have a Trafficmaster Freeway device which is not ideal.



Dave

1.6SE

[Paul]

Dave - thank you very much. I'm sure that you are right about the ability for the TravelPilot DX to cope with TMC, as the handbook includes a lot of information about it.

This is good news. I'll just use the Trafficmaster temporarily then.

Paul
1.4TDi, leather, Open Sky, BOSE, 6 CD, alu trim, cruise, DIS, etc. etc.

[netlinker]

Just received the Emtac Bluetooth receiver today. Mounted my PDA in the A2 on a vent-mount clip next to the steering wheel and drove home from the office. The GPS sat in the middle on top of the dashboard fairly well forward. Reception in the A2 was very good (between 6 and 7 Satellites) despite some very heavy snowfall outside. Used TomTom Navigator. Can't yet say more than that navigation fixes were dead on.

[netlinker]

Did some driving with the bluetooth GPS and TomTomNavigator this weekend. This combination really rocks! Reroutings with TomTom were very quick and position accuracy down to a couple of meters.

Right now the GPS is sitting next to me in the living room (top floor of an appartment building) and tracking 4 satellites!!!

Drove around in the A2 today and tracked usually between 5 and 7 satellites (this was in mountain valleys).

Did a small test: Tracked 7 satellites and then relocated the GPS to the glove box of the A2. GPS kept on tracking all 7 satellites!!

......amazing

GPS receivers can't get much better than this.