Diesel versus Petrol

[spav]

I've been looking for an A2 for a few weeks now, but they're pretty scarce in Ireland. I had my heart set on a petrol model, but the few I've seen were either in ropey condition or were snapped up before I had chance to get to see them.

Anyway, a 1.4TDI has just come available, and it looks really good. So I was wondering, is the diesel engine noticebly more sluggish than the petrol? I'll be using it as a city car primarily, so accelleration over relatievly short distances is more important than its behaviour on the motorway.

(btw, the dealer claims it's the 90bhp version, though I'm not sure how to verify this).

[chucknaldo]

Hi Spav there are two ways of spotting a 90, first off the 90 has a red i on the rear tdi badge and secondly they have rear brake discs as opposed to brake drums which are on the 75's. i have a 75 and find it to be very sprightly, even more so since i have chipped it...:D

[driveforward]

Generally I think you'd find the petrol to be more sluggish than the diesel tbh. The presence of a turbo helps somewhat ;)

[john f]

Diesels are generally much sprightlier than petrol models, simply due to the extra torque. A tdi 90 is almost fast.

[lyndonbuck]

A 1.6 petrol is faster from a standstill which might be more useful in cities, 3 seconds quicker to 60 than a TDI 75. Diesels are OK once in their powerbands and are more efficient when working hard, so are better on motorways. For a city car on low miles a petrol would make more sense, will be cheaper to buy too. They are much quieter and smoother too and less drivetrain shunt which makes them more relaxed when queing. Try them both and see. A lot of people on here has a diesel so don't necessarily expect a balanced view.

[ULP]

A lot of people on here has a diesel so don't necessarily expect a balanced view.

I seem to have heard that line before but can't remember the author...

Anyway, try the diesel and see what you think; having driven both the TDI 75 and petrol 1.4 I can confirm the latter is fine once up to speed but around town it's pretty sluggish. I know that sounds odd but I suspect the electric throttle is at fault here; pulling away in busy traffic see's you writing cheques the car can't bank. However, if a diesel's 'chunkiness' upsets you then a petrol is fine so long as you learn to drive around it doing nothing below 3000rpm.

My cousin has an un-chipped TDI 90 and it's noticably quicker although not a world away; Skipton's chipped 90 (118bhp) moves like a flamenco dancer with an adder in his pants.

[Darren C]

Skipton's chipped 90 (118bhp) moves like a flamenco dancer with an adder in his pants.

Speaking from experience are we Chris?? :D

Seriously back to the topic. It is very much a personal taste at the end of the day, for some it is the sheer noise of a rattly diesel engine that puts them off. Personally speaking, I am a lazy driver and I make use of the vast amount of low down torque offered by the diesel engine, which negates the need to rev the knackers off the car. Combine this with better fuel economy and for me I was sold.

I have never driven the 1.4 petrol A2, but my wife owns a 1.4 petrol 'A Class' and in comparison this engine is very laboured compared to the TDi in the A2. I know there is a power to weight ratio difference between the vehicles, but the sheer thrill when the turbo kicks in is worth the extra purchase money in itself.

Good luck in your search and final choice.

Regards,

Darren

[Rob Earl]

We've got a 1.4 petrol and have never had any problems with keeping up with the flow in town. On motorways, it gets up to 90 quite easily (apparently) and then struggles up to the top speed, whereas the diesel has quicker in gear acceleration & probably pulls more like a train up to & over 100mph.
Ours is mainly a town car & rarely does motorways so this doesn't really bother us.
Its horses for courses really. Both cars (1.4 petrol & TDi 75) do the standing start in the same time and they both have the same top speed - just very different ways of delivering the power.

[lyndonbuck]

There is quite a difference in the power and torque outputs of the 1.4 and 1.6 petrol engines, with the 1.6 being more economical and more powerful, you both for some reason seem to talking about the 1.4? If you can find a TDI90 you will get a newer engine puls the rear discs etc and all the other changes that came in with the 2004 model, aero wipers etc, so it will be a better car.

[lyndonbuck]

Sorry Rob Earl I meant the other 2 people who responded, not you.

[Darren C]

Sorry Rob Earl I meant the other 2 people who responded, not you.

Lyndonbuck,

You are quite right to mention the power output of the 1.6 fsi, which is designed to offer the performance of the petrol engine combined with the frugal economy of the diesel counterpart.

I don't think that Chris, myself nor Rob where dismissive in any way of the 1.6 petrol engine, merely that the 1.4 engines offer a closer comparison.

Darren

[tdiman]

I found 'eggbert' reluctant to rev, almost as though it was bogged down somehow, once going though he flew, strange as my A4 of which the A2 tdi engine is 3/4 revs quite happily, also had a Fiat Idea multijet in Italy, same reved fine, was something wrong with eggbert or is that characteristic of all 3 cylinder weasels?

[driveforward]

I found 'eggbert' reluctant to rev, almost as though it was bogged down somehow, once going though he flew, strange as my A4 of which the A2 tdi engine is 3/4 revs quite happily, also had a Fiat Idea multijet in Italy, same reved fine, was something wrong with eggbert or is that characteristic of all 3 cylinder weasels?
Maybe worth cleaning/changing the air filter? If the engine is being held back by poor air intake it can sometimes feel just like you describe

[humps]

Well, I have driven my 1.4 petrol for 4 years in central London. I can confirm the electronic throttle makes life a bit more difficult than it should be in heavy traffic, say... rush hour O'Connel Street! The throttle response very slowly (~1 sec) to the first 1 inch of depressing the paddle. Very often, I wonder if there was any effect and depress further. This kind of trigger past an electronic threshold and the engine rev straight to over 2500 rmp making the get away jerky. I remember the 1.4 petrol being difficult to get away 'slowly and smoothly' was mentioned in the forum (before new ownership). I also believe this (and driving in city) contributed to my excessive clutch wear. If I want a good (fast) get away, I have heel on break, toe on throttle, get 2000 rpm in neutral. Throttle is very hard to control between idle and 1800 rmp when in neutral. Other than that, the 1.4 petrol is fine in the city. The petrol is 1390cc and qualifies for discount on resident parking permit in many London borogh as oppose to the diesel, just tipping over 1400cc.

Try the diesel, see if there is the same throttle nuisance. BTW, I average about 37mpg. I don't think there is one bad engine in the A2 range, they have different characteristics. However, the 1.6 is great, best the 1.4 for economy and power!

[spav]

Thanks for the replies chaps, very interesting indeed.

I haven't seen a 1.6 over here at all - not even sure if they were ever sold in Ireland.

A2s in Ireland are like rocking horse droppings, so it's nice to know that both the diesel and petrol engine both have their merits - certainly makes my search easier.


The TDI i've seen advertised over here didn't have the red 'I' on the badge, despite the dealier claiming it was the 90bhp model.

The search continues!

[glock17]

Would agree that A2s are very rare.
I went from Coleraine to Plymouth to get the Pink Panzer (1.4 tdi 90) and came back through Holyhead and Dublin.

I didn't have to worry about VRT? though.

[bretti_kivi]

about the 1,4 being "sticky" - i've never seen it, but...I have been running super plus / optimax for close to 10000 miles. Now i've seen the state of my throttle body (see attached). I cleaned that up tonight (i'm going to escape and fit it back right now ;)) but that's possibly a cause?

I've driven a tractor, sorry, diesel A2, in Germany for a couple hundred Kms and didn't like it. Delivery too snappy, lots of push at 1800 but that was it... sat nicely, but not my thing. plus it wanted 3rd in Town and i wanted to use fourth. Surfing the wave of torque isn't my personal cup of char.

Bret

[lyndonbuck]

So much for optimax having detergents in - its supposed to dissolve all the deposits - can't work that well can it? I occasionally put an injector cleaner in with the petrol - Forte do a good one, £15 a go here in the UK, its quite aggressive and this might help to keep it all clean inside.

[tdiman]

So much for optimax having detergents in - its supposed to dissolve all the deposits - can't work that well can it? I occasionally put an injector cleaner in with the petrol - Forte do a good one, £15 a go here in the UK, its quite aggressive and this might help to keep it all clean inside.

Correct me if I am wrong but how does petrol get anywhere near your throttle body? always thought it was either injected into the inlet manifold or in some cars direct into the cylinders!, surely the trottle body is upflow of that area.
What I think we have is the results of the EGR system, therefore no petrol gets anywhere near there!

Oh and DRIVEFORWARD, eggbert felt like that straight after the services as well so the air filter possible cause in a no go I'm afraid

[driveforward]

I've driven a tractor, sorry, diesel A2, in Germany for a couple hundred Kms and didn't like it. Delivery too snappy, lots of push at 1800 but that was it... sat nicely, but not my thing. plus it wanted 3rd in Town and i wanted to use fourth. Surfing the wave of torque isn't my personal cup of char.

Bret
Each to their own I suppose, however on this point I will say that my A2 has become a lot more 'revvy' and now the torque is spread more evenly across the rev range rather than served in one big lump following my remap.

What I think we have is the results of the EGR system, therefore no petrol gets anywhere near there!

Oh and DRIVEFORWARD, eggbert felt like that straight after the services as well so the air filter possible cause in a no go I'm afraid
EGR: Indeed, many owners of TDI's disable (block the pipe) or minimise (ECU setting) the exhaust gas recirculation to prevent the muck heading back for a second ride!

RE the air filter, that depends.. back in December my A2 was beginning to feel a bit retarded, after an air filter clean things certainly felt less restricted (hardly surprising given there was 25,000 miles worth of muck in the filter!). From experience on previous VAG 1.9 TDI's a simple bit of cleaning can certainly sustain better performance, it makes sense really.

[chucknaldo]

Each to their own I suppose, however on this point I will say that my A2 has become a lot more 'revvy' and now the torque is spread more evenly across the rev range rather than served in one big lump following my remap.

My feelings exactly. Driving a diesel is a new experience for me having driven only petrol, I find with the diesel you have to be a lot more controlled and accurate with the throttle and clutch, so this awarness I think, has in turn made me a better, smoother driver. (If you understand what I mean):confused:

[humps]

Correct me if I am wrong but how does petrol get anywhere near your throttle body? always thought it was either injected into the inlet manifold or in some cars direct into the cylinders!, surely the trottle body is upflow of that area.
What I think we have is the results of the EGR system, therefore no petrol gets anywhere near there!

yeah, I think so too! IIRC the FSI engines injects the petrol like a diesel, but the 1.4 is a typical petrol with normal intake and fuel delivery systems. So it must be the air filter that let the black sticky stuff coat the valve?

[ecoangel]

"75 bhp 1.4 petrol engine offering a Euromix of 46.31 mpg or a 3-cylinder 1.4 litre 75 bhp, 144 lb ft TDI pump-injector diesel offering a Euromix of 67 mpg and up to 81 mpg touring. Both do 108 mph and 0-60 in 12 seconds, but diesel is more fun to drive."

see: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=AUD&h_make=AUD&p_model=%2015

If you are in EIRE and hence Eurozone then consider importing the (in my opinion!) best in the range: 1.2 TDI. Far better than a Prius for both city and long distance driving. Road tax free in UK, low insurance, 90mpg (3 l/100km), inexpensive tyres (£35 to £40 each fitted) but LHD and very rare to find a good one cheaply.

Remember also that the future is CO2 emissions: 1.4 Petrol 144g/km, 1.6 Petrol 142g/km, 1.4 TDI 119g/km and 1.2 TDI 81g/km

Red Ken is to exempt all cars below 120g/km from London congestion charge in 2008.

[Smick]

"75 bhp 1.4 petrol engine offering a Euromix of 46.31 mpg or a 3-cylinder 1.4 litre 75 bhp, 144 lb ft TDI pump-injector diesel offering a Euromix of 67 mpg and up to 81 mpg touring. Both do 108 mph and 0-60 in 12 seconds, but diesel is more fun to drive."

see: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=AUD&h_make=AUD&p_model=%2015

If you are in EIRE and hence Eurozone then consider importing the (in my opinion!) best in the range: 1.2 TDI. Far better than a Prius for both city and long distance driving. Road tax free in UK, low insurance, 90mpg (3 l/100km), inexpensive tyres (£35 to £40 each fitted) but LHD and very rare to find a good one cheaply.

Remember also that the future is CO2 emissions: 1.4 Petrol 144g/km, 1.6 Petrol 142g/km, 1.4 TDI 119g/km and 1.2 TDI 81g/km

Red Ken is to exempt all cars below 120g/km from London congestion charge in 2008.

Hi Lukas,

here in ROI there is a prohibitively expensive tax on importing cars. It is called VRT and is levied at 25% of what the government state the car is worth. This is always far in excess of what you have paid for the car or what the market value in Ireland is. I am sure a buyer would be lucky to escape with €3k in VRT for bringing in an A2TDi.

Because the road tax here is higher in the UK as well it would be €251 pa for the 1191 engine. About £170. A 1422 diesel engine would be €313 pa (approx £212) and the 1390 petrol would be €292 pa (£200) so tax savings are minimal.

Petrol and Diesel are cheaper in ROI than the UK at about €1.10 (75p) per litre.

There would be no cost saving for importing a A2 1.2TDi at all but maybe an importer could feel good about their green credentials by doing so.

[tdiman]

yeah, I think so too! IIRC the FSI engines injects the petrol like a diesel, but the 1.4 is a typical petrol with normal intake and fuel delivery systems. So it must be the air filter that let the black sticky stuff coat the valve?

Nope, it's from the wonderful EGR valve which recirculates the exhaust gas through the intake system for another burn that causes the sooty deposits, hence some TDI owners either block or disconnect the pipe or control it via VAG com to reduce it's impact, in fact I'm thinking of doing it to my A4 once I replace the turbo now the seals have gone!!!

[bretti_kivi]

considering the time involved in doing the job (including losing a bolt and having to unbolt half the damn bumper to get it again), it's definitely worth doing it yourself. It took about 2 hours, with 15 mins of that dealing with the clip on the air intake (my molegrips aren't big enough!) and another 30 dealing with the lost bolt. The results were immediate, without any calibration. More go, more ESP (fresh snow last night), more noise, better hanging on the pedal, blipping on the way down was easier and made more sense.
Very happy with the results. Now for the next bits... ;)

And now, back to the feature presentation....
I don't remember how many kms the Diesel A2 I drove had - but i prefer my own. Tax is a real pain - we also have to pay lots here and therefore a diesel is only worth it after a serious number of kms per year.
Drive them, check if they're compatible with your style!

Bret

[lyndonbuck]

Sorry yes I was just being stupid, however I guess that cleaner fuel = cleaner exhaust gases = less rubbish to recirculate hence less deposits less in the throttle body?

[spav]

Going to have a look at this over the weekend;
http://www.brdmotors.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=623234

According to the dealer it's in showroom condition. He also claims that it's the 90bhp version, though the lack of a red 'I' on the boot would suggest otherwise.

[manhattan$]

I dont think that it is the 90ps version.


It looks like that it has rear drum brakes from the top middle picture. And as you have said no red i badge too.

[spav]

I dont think that it is the 90ps version.


It looks like that it has rear drum brakes from the top middle picture. And as you have said no red i badge too.

Stupid question perhaps, but is there a big difference between the two?

[manhattan$]

As far as i can remember, the turbo is different, some engine parts, the rear brakes are discs, and the red "i" badge. I have not driven a 75ps version, only the 90ps but i am sure a few guys here have driven both.

[spike]

Hi spav
Another watchout is the description says it has aircon but the picture of the dash shows otherwise. Models with the climate control option have touch buttons and a digital display so dont have the 3 knobs below the radio unit. There is an ECON button below the centre control knob but this is to turn off the auxiliary heater and not to switch off the aircon as some dealers think.

With CC fited, the ECON button does have other functions but I won't confuse the issue further.

Cheers Spike

[spike]

90 tdi differences were covered in previous posts
http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5071&highlight=90tdi

Cheers Spike

[ULP]

That is a 75bhp car - for a start it has rear drums, secondly it doesn't have the red 'I' and thirdly it is a 2002 car - the 90bhp model was introduced in 2003.

As Spike say's it doesn't have air conditioning either. Nothing wrong with the car, but I wouldn't trust the dealer to be selling a straight 'un.

[Fredriklian]

Hi Spav there are two ways of spotting a 90, first off the 90 has a red i on the rear tdi badge and secondly they have rear brake discs as opposed to brake drums which are on the 75's. i have a 75 and find it to be very sprightly, even more so since i have chipped it...:D

Hey!
Can you tell me a bit more about your experience in chipping? I've got a A2,1,2 tdi with a power box, 190NM and 86HP. Moves really good...

Sorry
bad english...

[john f]

Going to have a look at this over the weekend;
http://www.brdmotors.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=623234

According to the dealer it's in showroom condition. He also claims that it's the 90bhp version, though the lack of a red 'I' on the boot would suggest otherwise.

Seems way too expensive and it is def. not a tdi 90.

[spav]

Thanks again for the advice chaps. Decided not to go for it - it's a bit overpriced, and it seems the dealer is trying to pull a fast one.