A2 1.4TDI v Smart Forfour 1.5CDi

[ecoangel]

Any thots on what appear to be quite close spec cars?

I am thinking 95HP A2 and 95HP 4 seat Smart

Ally vrs Plastic panels etc

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=145

[ULP]

The very quandry I had when buying my A2 as we already have a smart city-coupe.

The forfour is a nice enough car, and I have driven the 1.1 12v passion, 1.3 16v pulse softouch, 1.5 16v passion softouch and 1.5Cdi (95) passion. It is light (still only about 1000kg which is quite light in today's world) and I think they are decent-enough cars but I was never going to plow £10K into a new one when compared to the A2. As you are thinking of the diesel I will focus on this model - the 1.5Cdi is a quick car, it really can pull at a decent rate of knots but it is the noisiest and most unpleasent engine I have listened to in a long, long, time - tuneless, despite three-pots and incredibly loud. I couldn't have lived with it. The handling was noticeably affected by the heavier diesel lump up front too, although generally it is a decent handler. They ride well but it's not an acomplished ride or cossetting but then some people would say the A2 is no better.

Interior plastics and fit/ finish are nowhere near the A2 but I suspect they will last.

They have the biggest A-pillar known to man (yes, larger than the A2's) - you can loose whole trucks in them.

Specification-wise they are a little odd - the standard stereo is a 2-speaker jobbie (on all models) that needs the optional sound pack (6 speakers, sub woofer) or 'stereo 6' (6 speaker stereo with telephone activation). Otherwise the passion gets some nice goodies such as a leather wheel, alloys, air conditioning and the fantastic glass-roof (fixed). Lot's of the earlier ones had loads of options but the later versions tend to be pretty standard. The forfour didn't get a centre rear seatbelt as standard, just two belts on a 60/40 split seat - the 'bench seat' is an option and many have it (simply a 3-point centre seatbelt and headrest).

The rear seat slides and this can make them voluminous inside - however, with the seat right back there is only 200L of boot space so you would struggle to get a pushchair in, never mind anything else. They are a conventional supermini-chassis and as such will always be smaller than the A2.

I wouldn't even get close to thinking about the forfour as a replacement for the A2, and could never have spent £10K on a new one but as a £6K 18-month old used car they make brilliant sense. You probably know they have been discontinued but the Mitsubishi Colt is the same car underneath so the mechanicals will continue to be supported for a long time and a Mitsubishi dealer is a more pleasent option for servicing than smart (Mercedes Benz).

If you wanted semi-auto smart do a softouch + system for the forfour which also handily has in-built 'creep' (i.e. take your feet off all the pedals and it moves). This gearbox also has a 6th gear which is an overdrive (i.e. 1-5th are the same as manual with 6th taller still).

A friend of mine works at a smart dealer and he tells me they are incredibly reliable - occassionally the softouch + gearbox can have an off-day, but the car is otherwise pretty impressive. Variable servicing is roughly every 15,000 miles depending on driving style.

However, I would avoid the diesel - rapid they are and economical too, but they are noisy buggers.

My advice is try the 1.1 12v or 1.3 16v petrols - the 1.1 is a really charismatic engine (it is 3/4 of the 1.5 16v) and quite punchy although looses steam at around 85mph; I loved it though. The 1.3 is damned quick (95bhp) and we had one for a weekend that was doing 45mpg - not bad.

Great car, but no A2 replacement.

[ecoangel]

Great info

The concept of light weight, unusual shape , good economy and seating for 4 seem to be shared by A2 and the forfour.

Funny how this car is also discontinued (like A2) and superminis grow ever fatter.....

[ULP]

Funny how this car is also discontinued (like A2) and superminis grow ever fatter.....

Sadly, the smarts forfour's problems were more substantial.

Firstly, in the UK it was released with a 2yr warranty when EVERYTHING else in the sector has 3yrs warranty - fine on the unique city-coupe but not on a mainstream hatch; fleets, lease companies and the like all started wondering if smart knew something about the longevity of their cars they didn't. In the end the fear was unfounded on reliability but when I bought the A2 I was in the slightly odd position of buying a 6 month old car that would have a longer warranty on it than a spanking new smart forfour! The fleets never took it on as a viable option. Annoyingly, to get rid of the cars once they were discontinued, smart put a 4yr warranty on them (on cars registered from 01/04/2006). Too late was the cry.

Secondly, and old favourite - it was too expensive. Well, that's not strictly true but for £9,000 you got a boggo-basic 1.1 12v pulse with 2 speaker stereo, no air con. smart didn't work hard enough to tell people it had side airbags (not common in supermini's some 2yrs ago and even now basic 207's, Grande Punto's etc. still only have front airbags) and ESP as standard - the safety angle was never properly sold. In truth, you 'had' to spend £11,370 to get a 1.3 16v passion which people thought was expensive for a car with only 2yrs warranty when a similar spec (and identially engineered) Colt 1.3 Equippe was £9,999 (no side airbags or ESP, but 6 speaker stereo, electric rear windows and a luggage cover - I kid you not)

Thirdly, another old favourite - marketing. smart didn't market the car properly, only starting the nice Kaleidescope adverts once the car was struggling to sell.

And fourth - the smart forfour wasn't a victim of it's own failure, just of Daimler Chrysler's ability to haemorrage money. The smart 'experiment' always had a 6yr payback period (i.e. wouldn't be profitable until 2004); however, since Daimler bought Chrysler it discovered what a financial basket case the American company was and looked to make quick escapes - they thought a four seater smart (always planned to be introduced sometime in the middle of the current decade) would be the answer so had it hastily built on the platform of the new Colt (Mercedes owned a 35%-ish stake in Mitsubishi until recently); it wasn't an immediate sales success which is what DC wanted. In a panic to save the smart brand, smart executives agreed to can the forfour which was now extending the brands debt, not improving pay-back. The irony being the Mitsubishi Colt is a sales success across Europe and Japan. The forfour did well in Medditerranian countries but less so in Northern Europe.

Lastly, early-adopter smart city-coupe owners who now had kids or wanted to replace their 'family' car (the original forfour market) with a smart product didn't buy the Mitsubishi Colt in-drag act; they wanted unique, vibrant, funky. Some forfour owners argue against these people but to many city-coupe owners it isn't a 'proper smart'. Had smart tried to buy the 'Spiritual Too' designs from BMW for the new 'MINI' then smart owners would have lapped them up.

I agree with the forfour owners and many of the detractors have never driven the forfour which, it has to be said, is a nice car to drive and the 1.1 12v has a proper three-pot thrum (unlike the diesel). It's probably the best modern supermini out there in my opinion, alongside the Fiat Grande Punto

The 1.3 16v is quick and the 1.5 16v (I have driven a manual Colt with this engine) is no quicker than the 1.3 and not worth the extra cash.

The petrol engines are Mitsubishi units and generally hardy - the diesel is 3/4 of the current 2.0L A-klasse diesel in the A160/180/200CDI.

[lyndonbuck]

I looked at a diesel Colt before I bought the A2 - its lighter than the smart, cheaper and doesn't look as rubbish - and it was quieter than the diesel A2 that I drove the same day. My friend has a petrol one - I think its a 1.6 - and loves it. Would be much more reliable than an Audi!

[thespringfield]

I had a 54 plate Mitsubishi Colt 1.5 Sport. Excellent car all-round and really good fuel economy. The car loved being thrashed. The A-pillars on the Colt are very bad. Resulted in me crashing side-on into a Ford Fiesta and being chased by a fat hairy bloke. I had it repaired and sold it on as insurance became expensive. A2 is better as more economical and quite refined. But I felt colt was far more reliable. Had a better quality interior than the Audi A2 but no climate control. Similar cars in shape. Same sort of wheels. Engine built in Japan, rest built in Holland. 60% parts shared with Smart forfour. I heard that the diesel is not so good and that the Mitsubishi is better in terms of quality.

[chubbybrown]

I drove a 'Eurocar' 1.1 forfour :-)
Hired for the day from Bristol airport.
It went well but died off a bit on the hills as I crept over the moors heading to bideford.
The auto box was quirky and when it worked it was fine;however it did leave me stranded at a set of traffic lights when it wouldnt engadge gear,any gear!
I turned it all off and restarted and away it went,very weird.
I think it gave 40 mpg,dissapointed as there were only two of us with no lugagge.
I did look at a diesel to buy and went for an A2 instead,why?
well I hope depreciation in a A2 will be better.
If you goto the Mitsi forums they reckon one of thier small cars will be worth 3k after 3 years and out of warranty.
Unsure if you could sell one as quick as an A2 either.
cheers
Roy

[thespringfield]

I think that the £3k would be for the 1.1 or whatever the smallest engine is. It is alledgedly very underpowered, £3000 does seem very little though. I had no problems selling my Colt which was in it's last year of the warrany. I sold it for £6000 for a quick sale but probably could have got more if I wanted to wait. I had bought it for £8000 only a year earlier and it had only 3k on the clock. I was quite pleased as I saved £3000 on the 'new' price at the time. They are really good reliable cars but you need to be careful which engine you choose. I've read all the reviews as I normally do before I spend a few grand on a car and it seems that anything below the 1.5 sport is a little underpowered. The only alternative is a 1.5 Turbo if you're into high insurance premiums etc. or the diesel which I never test drove and assumed would not be nippy due to it's engine size and being a diesel. It's only since I bought an A2 TDi SE that I have realised that a small diesel engine can actually be satisfyingly quick!

MH

[chubbybrown]

the reason most were selling as you could buy a service package for £150 I think..
so most were cashing up and starting again;)

Just sold my mitsi to go for the A2

[MPG Lover]

The car loved being thrashed. The A-pillars on the Colt are very bad. Resulted in me crashing side-on into a Ford Fiesta

Try connecting the first and third sentences...:mad:

[ULP]

I've read all the reviews as I normally do before I spend a few grand on a car and it seems that anything below the 1.5 sport is a little underpowered.

I can't really agree with that. I have driven:

forfour 1.1 12v passion
forfour 1.3 16v passion softouch + (twice)
forfour 1.5 16v passion softouch +
forfour 1.5cdi (95) 12v passion
Colt 1.1 12v Equippe
Colt 1.5 16v Sport

In my experience the 1.1 12v is perfectly puntable and has a nice thrashable nature about it; yes, it won't beat many RS4's away from the lights but the engine has a very usable rev-range and certainly feels more brawny than a 1.4 petrol A2, for example. Having three big pots rather than four smaller ones means it has a decent amount of torque for one so small. In both the smart and Mitsubishi it was well up to the job; only at the wrong side of 80mph did you notice the performance defecit.

The 1.3 16v engine is also decent - performance is a step-up and it's more than capable of holding its own at any 'real world' UK motorway speed; the softouch+ has 6 gears but 5th is the same ratio as 5th on the manual, 6th is essentially an over-drive; even at 85mph in 5th it was more than happy and civilised (I was looking at the manual so wanted an idea of cruising performance). Give it the beans and the 1.3 is well and truly game and once again belies its capacity.

The 1.5 16v in the smart was only a short test-drive of 15 minutes, but in the Colt I had it for a few hours. This engine is a tiny bit smoother than the 1.3 but in the Colt this is outweighed by the exhaust which has a continuous 'sporty' rasp to it; nice under acceleration but an annoyance when cruising. Performance wise it was almost impossible to differentiate it from the 1.3 16v at any engine speed. The Colt Sport looked nice (and the red interior was a plus) but as a package the 1.3 Equippe was much better value although it missed some useful goodies from the Sport.

The diesel is a bag of bolts; possibly the worst I have driven in recent years. Quick? oh yes, but unrefined in the extreme. It sounded like a washing machine with the transport bolts left in. Just awful.