Tyre? rumble saga

[digiblue]

About 3 months and 4000 miles ago I bought a pair of Continental Premium Contact 185/50 R16 H for a TDI 90 SE. They were bought online at blackcircles and fitted to the front wheels by a helpful and friendly local fitter. I have a feeling the old tyres were contis, but with a higher speed rating.

After they were fitted I got strong vibrations through the steering wheel and the steering felt overly light at motorway speed. Similar to when I've had badly balanced wheels, except that the vibrations didn't appear consistently at a certain speed. It was as if the tyres had to warm up before it occurred.

I went back to the fitter and explained the vibration problem to them. They checked the wheel balance on all four wheels, which was fine, so they swapped the front and rear tyres, which cured the vibration problems.

I then started to notice a rumbling sound when driving - not a continuous tone, more of an oscillation sound which varies with the speed of the car. I've jacked the car up and all wheels spin freely with no significant brake drag and no roughness, and there is no play in the bearings. When spinning the wheels I've looked at their profile and not noticed any unevenness.

I haven't been back to the tyre fitter because I bought the tyres online and the fitter said there was not much more they could do, and I hoped the rumbling would go away as the tyres bedded in.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar? The evidence seems to point to faulty tyres. Is this likely? Do you reckon it's worth contacting blackcircles after so long?

Thanks for your help

[Skipton01]

The A2 is incredibly sensitive to tyre type and condition.

I have had banging, knocking and all manner of noises which were due to partly worn Eagle F1 tyres. I've had good performance from Avon ZZ3s, Michelin Pilot Sports and am about to try Nexen N3000s.

Contis were never standard fitment for the A2, possibly because of this 'issue' with strange noises.

The other possibility is that the laminations of the tyre are actually separating at speed, giving rise to the noise you can hear. Checking this is pretty much impossible on your own, so maybe a note to the retailer would be best.

Cheers,

Mike

[vkx245l]

One other issue might be the tread alignment. I had a problem sometime ago where the tyre depot diagnosed that the tread on the tyre wasn't running round true (hope that makes sense). It was visible, albeit only slightly, by jacking the car up and spinning the wheel (looks like a buckled wheel). They said sometimes they get tyres like this and some cars are more sensitive to it than others, which makes sense. I got them replaced FOC as they were going to return them to the manufacturer.

Cheers

Jonathan

[Adrian888]

So what were OE fit tyres? Mine is a sport with 17" wheels and has almost new Pirellis' on. There is v.slight vibration at speed (80+:rolleyes:) and they seem noisy but that is in comparison with my A6.

[Skipton01]

Dunlop SP9000, Michelin Pilot Sport, Pirelli P6000 (only a few), were all OE fit tyres.

Interestingly, Continental EcoDrive were a standard fit on A6s.

Yokohama A539, Pirelli P Zero, Goodyear Eagle F1, Toyo Proxes T1s/R have all been fitted with good results, as have cheaper makes such as Wanli and Nankang.

Cheers,

Mike

[Adrian888]

Thanks Mike, if I was going out buying tyres I would be looking at Toyos' if finances allowed! Had superb experience with them on my Astra T8's.

[ULP]

Continentals seem to be a bit noisier because they are hard, but because of this take a long time to wear.

I have P6000's on my car, which it has had since new (and were fitted to my last Punto) and I have never had a problem with the grip, noise, comfort, feel and longevity with them, despite that some people generally think they are a rubbish tyre. However, I understand P6000's are presently difficult to get hold of.

I wouldn't reduce the speed-rating, this is a false economy as it relates to a number of factors such as weight, speed, acceleration and so-on; it's a bit unreasonable they still call it the speed rating, and it is rated in kmh and mph. You also need to advise your insurance company as it could invalidate your policy.

[digiblue]

Thanks for all your replies.

the 'oscillating rumble' can be heard at low speeds - less than 10mph. I wonder if laminations can separate at this kind of speed. My poor maths estimates this to be about 100RPM at the wheels.

The contis got goo reviews for noise, but then again the A2 is not the average car.

I tried to look at tread alignment and didn't notice much variation in the grooves when spinning the wheel, but I'll check again to be sure.

I think the OE tyre on my A2 were the Michelins. I tried to get Toyos, but no one had them in stock.

I am starting to get a bit concerned about the H speed rating, Does anyone know what Audi min spec is for a TDI 90 SE? I think I'll give them a call.

[digiblue]

I'm thinking that if the tyres are of too low a speed rating i'll replace them because i don't want an excuse for the insurance company to use if there's an accident.

I also wonder what an insurance company would say if tyres of a bigger outside diameter than spec were fitted as many here seem to do because of better availability. I'd bet they wouldn't like it, and, if the car was still under warranty and there was a problem with brakes, wheels, suspension etc it could be an excuse to invalidate the claim. Has anyone got experience with this?

[A2 Golden Miler]

We have a 1.6 FSI on 16" 's - recently had to replace 1 due to bad puncture (not repairable) took the decision to replace 2 and have 2 new put on front. Had Michelin pilots at new, these were completely unavailable, Toyos would take a week, ended up buying Pirelli P6000's ( PIRELLI PR P6000 POWER 81V)
not cheap - £174 fitted / balanced with front wheel alignment etc and done the same day !
very happy with performance / noise etc etc

[ndavid]

Last autumn I have changed my OEM Goodyear NCT5 tyres to Conti PremiumContact2 195/55R15V. I think it was a really good decision, both comfort and handling have been improved significantly at motorway speed as well. Is it possible that PC2's newest pattern and compound fits better to the A2?

Norbert

[bye_bye_alfa]

Dunlop SP9000, Michelin Pilot Sport, Pirelli P6000 (only a few), were all OE fit tyres.

Mike

Mine came brand new with SP9000's??

bba

[digiblue]

i've been in touch with blackcircles and they said i could arrange for tyre(s) that i thought were defective to be returned to the manufacturer, and if they are found to be faulty I will be issued with a credit based on the tyre wear.

looking in the owner's manual last night, i couldn't find any speed rating specs except for winter tyres, where H were the fastest tyres listed. Apparently if the car uses winter tyres that are not capable of its max speed, the car needs some kind of label fitting stating this. I can't remember exact wording. It also said that tyre specifications must comply with those listed on the car registration document. There are no tyre specs on my registration document though.

[beyonder52]

allways make sure you put new tyres on the back the garage should have known this it gives you better traction and the should do it by law!!! as for the noise i had the same problem a while ago and found out that i had a small stone stuck on the brake pad i hoped this help...

[Skipton01]

allways make sure you put new tyres on the back the garage should have known this it gives you better traction and the should do it by law!!!

For rear wheel drive vehicles maybe, but NOT on the A2. If there is a large difference in tread depths between the front and rear axels, the tyres with deepest tread should ALWAYS be fitted to the front axel.

Cheers,

Mike

[beyonder52]

it does not matter if it rear or front, rear wheel drive cars skid out more on the rear ,ok you might get more control on rear wheel drive but u still need more grip!!!garages have to do this by law

[Skipton01]

it does not matter if it rear or front, rear wheel drive cars skid out more on the rear ,ok you might get more control on rear wheel drive but u still need more grip!!!garages have to do this by law

Sorry, that is incorrect.

On the A2, you should always have tyres with the most tread on the front axel. The following is an extract from the Audi workshop manual:


If there are large differences in the tread depth of the tyres on the front and rear axles, the tyres with the deeper tread should always be mounted on the front axle.


The same advice goes for any front wheel drive car too and as a generalisation, you should have the newer tyres on the driven wheels.

Cheers,

Mike

[spike]

I recall one of the car programmes on TV running a test to compare vehicle dynamics with max tread on front and rear tyres - and surprisingly the rears won.
Even Michelin recommend it - see link but I still put the newer tyres on the front. For me, it must reduce the risk of aquaplaning and getting punctures - both very scary when it happens on the front tyres. http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_cons_bib_pqr_neuf.jsp

Cheers Spike

[Skipton01]

The link is an interesting read, but completely illogical.

It says that braking will be improved, but that is impossible - under braking (emergency braking in particular), the vast majority of the cars' weight is thrown forward onto the front wheels and they do 90% of the work in stopping the vehicle.

They talk of handling and traction, but on the A2 (as in all front wheel drive cars) the rear wheels just follow in the path of the fronts. Sure, if you are getting towards the legal limit, they'll tend to break away earlier, but if you replace your tyres at about 3mm, which is recommended by all parties, not just manufacturers, then there will be practically no difference.

There will always be a bed-in period for new tyres, when they will be very much less grippy than they should be, but after 50-100 miles, they'll be at their optimum. The only reason offered is to promote understeer in very wet situations, but as the rear wheels follow close behind the fronts, which have already cleared a path, then this is going to be an ultra-rare scenario. Sure, if you are going round a bend, the track of the rears is different to the fronts, but if you are going round a bend fast enough to aquaplane, you should be taking more care in the first place!

Unless there is a reasoned argument and an explanation as to why you should do different, I would always recommend putting newer tyres on the front, as per Audi advice. As far as I can tell, the ordinary benefits (better braking, better real-world driving performance and wet weather performance) outweigh the single drawback of a rear wheel skid or oversteer, if you push things too hard.

Cheers,

Mike

[digiblue]

an update on the tyre noise. the worn set of tyres that had been moved to the front due to steering vibration were almost down to limit markers, so I bought a new pair of tyres. This time I couldn't get hold of continentals, so went for toyo proxes t1-r, which my local fitter did for £77 a tyre all inclusive. (it seems that 185 50 R16 are in short supply, blackcircles only had toyos or khumos).

To my amazement, on leaving the fitters, the car felt quite different. Much smoother, much quieter, and no rumble! So it was the oe michelin pilot premacy tyres which were to blame. Moving them to the front must have made the rumble noticeable. I can honestly say with the new Toyos on the front it feels like a different car, I actually like the A2 again!

BTW The recommendation is for the 'best' tyres to go onto the rear of a car: http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_cons_bib_pqr_neuf.jsp
Apparently it is also harder to control a car with a rear vs a front blowout, so the best tyres should be at the back.

[A2 Golden Miler]

I found this debate interesting, when I bought 2 new tyres recently the garage advised to move the front to rear and put the 2 new on the front "for safety reasons" I asked "how much to do this" and was advised "because it is a safety recommendation it is free of charge" !
On my 4x4 when the 2 fronts were worn I was advised (by a different fitter franchise) that for safety reasons I had to replace all 4 :eek:

Did a quick search across the net and just to be fair found an arguement to balance the front / rear debate where Mercedes :( and Continental appear to say it does not matter

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post?t=6540

could not find the detail on the continental website myself but did find a pic of an A2 Sport :D

http://www.conti-online.co.uk/generator/www/uk/en/continental/automobile/themes/car_tyres/tyre_en.html

Kwik Fit no longer recommend rotating tyres and go for the new to rear arguement

http://www.kwik-fit.com/tyre-rotation.asp

Which, also go for the rear

http://www.which.co.uk/reports_and_campaigns/cars/reports/running_a_car/accessories/Tyres/Tyres_essential_product_574_70980_7.jsp

and finally ... I have had enough now ;)

http://www.tyresafe.org/data/files/TyreSafe%20MOTORCAR.pdf .... lot of info some quite interesting but NO recommendations

and finally ... finally a recommendation from tyre safe

http://www.tyresafe.org/news-and-events/detail/motorists-get-their-tyres--back-to-front--/

[erstens]

For your savety, you allways need the better tyres on the rear axle!!!!!!!! It is so.


So if the tyres are only 4mm Profile, the better one should be in th rear.
But: If you have 6mm and two others with 7 or 8mm profile, I would use the better ones in the front!
Because:
The 6mm in rear are good enough for savety! Point.

And the why, why they recommend and also I would use the 8mm in the front (or if you buy two new tyres) is, that the front axle is the powerded on and the one with the steering, so they will rubb of faster and in one or two years you have 4 tyres with the same profile (5 or 4mm then) and that is ok.

Also the problem ist not the difference between 5 or 6mm. But if it is less than 4mm, aquaplaning is the biggest risc esp. in curves.
That is why I say, 5mm in th rear is enough, use the new tyres in the front but if it is less than 5mm or so, for your savety it is more important to have the better tyres on the rear axle.

The main question with this is: Do you allways want to buy two tyres or a set of four? If four, then you need some of the time the newer tyres on the front because the front axle will outwear the tyres faster.

15 years ago, where the front wheel drive cars came up, everyone said, use the better tyres in the front. Noeone had winter tyres. So you need the profile to drive on snow. But this was really dangerous 10-15 years ago. Averyone werer verry slow on snow.
Tody with good snow tyres, everyone is much faster, so the stability in the back is more important for controlling the car. The accelleration may be not as good with the less-profile tyres tyres but it is saver. Also when breaking. A blocking rear is allways bad.

So you can descide. Buy 2 or 4 wheels at a time, and remember if they are older with less profile, use the better ones at rear axle. If more than 5 or 6mm profile: you are free to descide.

[A2Look]

I got Falken ZE512's on my A2 with no problems. I'm looking at changing to Kumho next perhaps?

[Skipton01]

I'll stick with Audis advice for the time being and keep the better tyres on the front.

A2look, try a set of Nexen N3000 - they're pretty good for £50 a corner.

Cheers,

Mike

[Emm]

The H rating while perhaps not perfect is within tyre rating guide lines

Speed Symbol "H" For vehicles with a speed capability not exceeding 210 Km/h (130 Mph).


I run Toyo Proxes and will again this year when they wear out. they are the 17inch with a W rating which is completely over the top for a little 3 pot. The A2 tyres on the Sport are over specced, buts thats what they suggest :rolleyes: and TBH you can't really get a lower spec with the side wall ratio

And just to add to the debate. I would fit the best tyres on the front, and not for handling, traction or braking but just to rotate and make the tyres last longer...

[digiblue]

Thanks Emm,

That's the same conclusion I came to, the Audi manual says to refer to the registration document for tyre ratings. My registration doc doesn't say anything about tyre ratings. The manual also says that if winter tyres are fitted that are specced under the max speed of the car a notice must be attached to the car saying this. In future I will go for a V rating though, and probably toyos.

[tdiman]

The link is an interesting read, but completely illogical.

It says that braking will be improved, but that is impossible - under braking (emergency braking in particular), the vast majority of the cars' weight is thrown forward onto the front wheels and they do 90% of the work in stopping the vehicle.

They talk of handling and traction, but on the A2 (as in all front wheel drive cars) the rear wheels just follow in the path of the fronts. Sure, if you are getting towards the legal limit, they'll tend to break away earlier, but if you replace your tyres at about 3mm, which is recommended by all parties, not just manufacturers, then there will be practically no difference.

There will always be a bed-in period for new tyres, when they will be very much less grippy than they should be, but after 50-100 miles, they'll be at their optimum. The only reason offered is to promote understeer in very wet situations, but as the rear wheels follow close behind the fronts, which have already cleared a path, then this is going to be an ultra-rare scenario. Sure, if you are going round a bend, the track of the rears is different to the fronts, but if you are going round a bend fast enough to aquaplane, you should be taking more care in the first place!

Unless there is a reasoned argument and an explanation as to why you should do different, I would always recommend putting newer tyres on the front, as per Audi advice. As far as I can tell, the ordinary benefits (better braking, better real-world driving performance and wet weather performance) outweigh the single drawback of a rear wheel skid or oversteer, if you push things too hard.

Cheers,

Mike


I suppose the answer here is do you prefer an accident in understeer (old tyres to the front) or oversteer (old tyres to the rear) personally I'd like to see what I'm going to hit so I can duck, no on second thoughts there is more metal behind me! truth is nobody really has the 'correct' answer as all car designs, weight distribution and suspension setups differ so much, best follow Audi's handbook advise and go off backwards!