The Ethics Of Bio Fuels

[ecoangel]

OK this is the thread for dicussing the ethical issues of using Bio Fuels whether Ethanol based (for petrol cars eg: E85) or Biodiesel for TDI motors (eg: B20 / B100). Not forgetting WVO (Waste Veggie Oil from takeaway outlets) and SVO = new cooking oil.

Let us be very clear on the differences between fuels and their sources. And also the changes from GEN1 to GEN2 fuels.

GEN1 : fuel made directly from plants like Corn, Rapeseed, Palm Oil, Nuts,

eg: For starters Ethanol: can be made from sugar cane (Brazil have done this for decades) or more controversially from corn - hence the fuel v food debate.

GEN2: Fuel made from any organic waste product or chemically engineered such as Synthetic fuels eg: Butanol from sawdust/wood chippings.

Plus Crops that do not reduce the planet's capacity for food production or forrest acreage.

eg: Jatropha trees planted in Arid and Semi Arid condictions that actually encourages the soil to retain water and assits in growing food crops in parallel.


The Well to Wheel debate:

Let's also think about how efficient the cars that consume bio fuels are. If your Chevy pickup does 16mpg on petrol how much ethanol made from corn would it use? Most likely 30% worse: ie: 11.2 mpg

Is that an efficient use of all that farmland?

On the other hand is Jeep right to say their vehicles use less energy than a Prius over the lifetime of the car including manufacture, delivery accross the globe, useage and final disposal / recycling?

enough from me for now.....over to you........

[MrL]

A good thread, and well done for opening it up.
I am intending to produce my own bio diesel from waste / used cooking oil. I think it is the only 'green' way to do it.
Buying new oil to use would be OK if there was already an over supply, but as there isn't then I think it is wrong to contribute, or risk contributing to, increased food prices and de-forestation.

Mr L :D

[the grim reeper]

Well i put my responce to Biodiesel on here last week and i don't think i will be going down that road again, still trying to get the last bits out of the system so i can get my filter changed still coughs and splutters a bit around town when it gets up to temp and haven't tryed it on a long run yet waiting till i change the filter for that

CHeers Phil

[chb]

That anology used by jeep is a lazy one and surely can't be true.
Taking the Toyota Pius out of the equation and comparing the Jeep with pretty much ANY european car, it is wrong on so many levels.
Are they seriously saying that a jeep has much less carbon footprint at point of manufacture than say my 10 year old volvo v40 or my audi A2 (ignore the ALU refining!).

[ULP]

That anology used by jeep is a lazy one and surely can't be true.
Taking the Toyota Pius out of the equation and comparing the Jeep with pretty much ANY european car, it is wrong on so many levels.
Are they seriously saying that a jeep has much less carbon footprint at point of manufacture than say my 10 year old volvo v40 or my audi A2 (ignore the ALU refining!).

I did see the analysis of this a short while back and, as with any statistic, you can put what you want in to the calculation to interpret the desired answer.

However, there is a basic simplicity that is quite understandable. The Jeep is an 'all american' car, which means you don't have to fly or ship parts from far-flung places of the globe to build it; the carbon footprint of construction is actually quite small. Along with that, they tend to last for years; sure a 1972 Jeep chucks a few emissions out but it still being useable means another car hasn't had to be produced (enter, stage right, a new carbon footprint, extraction of raw materials etc.) nor has the Jeep needed to be destroyed/ disposed of (waste). The same study had a Land Rover in 3rd (from memory) because 85% of all Landie's are still on the road. Eco-numpties can crow, but a car that lasts so long is A Good Thing in terms of Whole Life Cycle.

The A2 and Volvo are probably mediocre in this respect; the A2 is wasted if there is anything approaching a decent-sized accident and early Volvo S40's and V40's built at Nedcar will probably self-destruct before long!

As a contrast, the Pious does indeed have low emissions but: A significant area surrounding the factory where the batteries are built (in Canada) has the most desolate landscape this side of the moon due to horrific localised acid rain, the batteries then have to be shipped half way across the world to Japan, put into a car that is then shipped around the world and after 8 years of the Pious running somebody has to spend circa £2K on replacing the batteries. Now, not sure about anybody here but the idea of spending that amount on an 8 year old Toyota holds little appeal, even less so than doing it when then car is 16. Their Whole Life Costing is still too-high although the fact Toyota (and so it would seem the Japanese Tax Payer) are willing to trial the feasibility is welcoming. Oh, and I know of a few people with a Pious' and they never get more than 45mpg out of it.

Back to the Bio-diesel debate; the best method of energy production is a balance between all sources; fossil fuel, nuclear, wind, wave, bio etc.; there is no single one answer. I laugh at the crowing over a recent application to build a new coal-fired power station; we currently have a fair few that have become inefficient, so why not replace them with efficient ones? Coal has a future, but let's mitigate the impact.

Bio-fuels; I love the way Brazil is haled as an example of how to invest in Bio-fuels; all those lovely eco-friendly fields used to be these small things called rain forests. Sure, we have a much simpler carbon cycle but by reducing our carbon-sink it makes less difference through which source carbon is emitted; there are less tree's to recycle it...

Until people understand Whole Life Cycle, then we'll always get people who need a wash shouting at the owners of 4x4's...

The most environmentally friendly car is probably a Mercedes W124 250D running on chip fat; it'll last forever.

[humps]

I think the title of this thread is great. I'll share my views

1. As a consumer, it is not always clear what type/source of Bio fuel are being sold. I certainly am unsure.

2. Life cycle energy consumption is a real factor. Not needing a new modern (also heavier) car every 3-4yrs is a Good Thing. The Jeep has a real point and people should keep their 15yr Rangie or Disco. But there is no real reason to buy a new 4.2 Q7.

3. In comparison, the A2 was well ahead of its time as a light weight, efficient car which we all agree. As a pilot product, I forgive it not calculating the extra energy used in aluminium extraction ...etc. However, the A2 is rather simple, mechanically, it has simple engines and suspension. Given no structural problems, it should last long to offset the production carbon footprint.

4. I'm not convinced the Prius NiMh battery can last 8yrs. Cue common issues of NiMh in small electronics. But since Prius has a 4 pot engine on the standby, owners will not know how bad the battery has decreased its efficiency until it is too bad, too obvious. Not only does it cost a lot of energy to produce the battery, it also cost energy to get rid of a dead one (even though it is free, covered by Toyota) compared to a simple crush on the Jeep. Also the Prius's fuel consumption can be matched by even a BMW 525d as tested by a magazine covering highway and city driving. The Prius switched off a/c and stereo while the bimmer was on full climate and the bimmer came out better! Hybrid really isn't a solution. All we need is under-educated celebrities to be aware of it.

[ecoangel]

Interesting replys!

I think the Prius is overhyped and now over here but at least it gets folks thinking about transport as a pollution issue. The Insight was a more radical idea and as for the Honda Civic hybrid....

My father always said keep the car running longer as long as it's economically viable - his Fiat Tipo TD has been round the clock twice and now has new owners!

The danger is people believing uninformed media headlines - yes Palm oil insted of Rain forrest is a very bad idea BUT that does not mean all bio fuels are of the devil!

The example of the large HIV AIDS orphanage in Kenya where jatropha is turned into bio diesel and the waste by product used to naturally fertilise the soil and allow food crops to be grown is a great example of the benefits of local bio fuel production.

I think the western nation will have to wait for Gen 2 fuels (eg: from farm waste, wood chippings etc) to become viable before we see it in regular use.

As for issues with current bio diesel outlets in the UK -

1. Make sure the quality standard is met BEFORE putting it into your tank - EN or RME
2. Buy a proper conversion set up such as Elsbett so you don't get the issue if you use veggie oil
3. Or make your own and get it tested (tax free per person 2500 litres a year).