Tyre wear - when to change them?

[birdsd01]

I have Continental premium contact 185/50 R16 V81 all round on my 1.4TDi. The rears are good, with at least 5.5mm of tread across the trye. The fronts are a little bit more worn!! They have between 2.5 and 3.5 mm depth left across the tread. Do they need changing??? :confused: The handling is not noticably bad, and braking seems to be fine? Am I being over cautious of I buy 2 new boots now?? I was considering a like for like swap, but the Kumho tryes seem a lot cheaper and more available.

Sorry if this is a real basic question :o, but I don't trust the trade, as they will be trying to sell me the replacements!

Cheers,
David

[dan_b]

If you're going only on legal requirement, it sounds like you can get away with a few more Ks of travel under them yet, but your uneven wear sounds suspicious - when you do change them get your tracking and alignment checked.

I've never been one to recommend budget tyres. Tyres are literally the only thing that keeps you connected to the road and I know I wouldn't want to buy tyres I knew were compromised on performance for a low price; but each to their own I guess.

[Emm]

They are fine don't worry about them too much. The wet weather deep puddle aqua planning will increase as the tread depth reduces but its all relative to your driving. I don't think 1 mm difference across the tyre tread is that significant on the front. Is it left to right across the tread (the difference) or smaller tread depth in the middle?

As both indicate different things

You could put the lower tread tyres on the back and the backs on the fronts. Front always wear waaaay quicker that rears so you will get even longer out of them then!!

[birdsd01]

Cheers Dan,

Both fronts are worn more on the outer shoulder. Strangely enough the A2 had a full alignment due at its last service (at local Audi delaer!) when some of the front suspension components were replaced to pass the MOT. From other posts I understand that the alignment is very difficult to get right on an A2 :confused: So maybe it needs checking again, by someone who knows what they are doing! I will monitor wear rates and probably change them in a couple of months. I have always bought the best tyres I can afford (I have Yokohama Advan on my MX-5 ~£130 each :eek:), but I have heard good things about the Kumho's (on this site) and thought they might be worth a punt, but it is very good point you make! The difference per pair is about £70, and then that is over the 20k miles I would hope to get out of them.

Thanks for the advice,

David

[thespringfield]

I would go with the Kumhos. I bought two more expensive tyres before I knew the kumhos existed I now have three new kumhos on and I don't notice the difference. A tyre is a tyre to me and unless you're racing or you've got more money than you know what to do with I wouldn't worry! But that is just my opinion.

[Skipton01]

I can agree to a great extent with the last post.

I probably have the most powerful A2 in the country and have had no problems whatsoever with 'budget' tyres - in fact, they have possibly been better than some of the big brands.

I've had:

Dunlop SP9000
Michelin Pilot Sport
Yokohama A539
Yokohama Parada Spec2
Goodyear Eagle F1
Avon ZZ3
Toyo Proxes R & S
Nexen N3000
Nexen N6000

In terms of rating them, you are looking at my overall rating IN REVERSE ORDER.

That's right, I place 2 semi budget tyres at the top and the 2 biggest brands at the bottom.

I've never had Bridgestones (on a bike yes, but not on a car), but they never really impressed me and they've got to pay for all that F1 advertsising!

Cheers,

Mike

[Emm]

I can agree to a great extent with the last post.

I probably have the most powerful A2 in the country and have had no problems whatsoever with 'budget' tyres - in fact, they have possibly been better than some of the big brands.

I've had:

Dunlop SP9000
Michelin Pilot Sport
Yokohama A539
Yokohama Parada Spec2
Goodyear Eagle F1
Avon ZZ3
Toyo Proxes R & S
Nexen N3000
Nexen N6000

In terms of rating them, you are looking at my overall rating IN REVERSE ORDER.

That's right, I place 2 semi budget tyres at the top and the 2 biggest brands at the bottom.

I've never had Bridgestones (on a bike yes, but not on a car), but they never really impressed me and they've got to pay for all that F1 advertsising!

Cheers,

Mike

A bold statement if you only have a re-map, exhaust and air filter?


Also have you really had all those tyres on your A2? How many miles do you have on the clock or do you drive like a complete mad man?

[Skipton01]

A bold statement if you only have a re-map, exhaust and air filter?


Also have you really had all those tyres on your A2? How many miles do you have on the clock or do you drive like a complete mad man?

I have indeed had all those tyres on my A2s - don't forget I've had 2 and been driving them for over 6 years now.

The first A2 was delivered with the Dunlops on and then had Toyos fitted. Tank was delivered with the Michelins, which were replaced with Yokos (parada on the front then A 539 on the rear) and then had Goodyears when I changed the wheels. I've since had Avons on the new wheels and just recently changed to Nexens front and rear.

Also, I tend not to run right down to the wear indicators, preferring to change at about 2-3mm, so in the 90k miles I;ve done, that's why I've gone through a few sets of tyres.

I don't drive like a mad man, just spiritedly and within the law.

As to power, yes I've had a filter change, but several re-maps and tweaks, together with not only an exhaust, but a 3" straight through exhaust and de-cat, which, to my knowledge, no-one else in the UK has had done. This makes a tremendous difference and at the recent rolling road day, Tank was 5 bhp more than the next nearest A2.

I tend not to make claims that are untrue and that's why I put the word probably in there!

Cheers,

Mike

[Emm]

None of the tyre dealers say anything more about Kumho’s or Nexen’s than “Better than the price suggests” or “Better than you would think for this money”. Very different to “Best tyre you can buy” or “better than the leading brands”.

I think they are good tyres, but better than Dunlop, Michelin, Pirelli etc. Michelin have test facilities Spain, France, Japan and the US and spend $400 million on R&D. Can a South Korean tyre company do better when its direct competition is only Kumho in Korea?


Anyway I’m sure you have a quick car, but you never know what is out there!! (I still think it’s a bold statement regardless of the probably) :Dlol

[Skipton01]

Thing is, what is 'better'?

Sure Goodyear F1s have the best grip of any tyres I've used and the Yoko A539s were the cheapest. The balance of things though, when you factor in price, means that in my opinion, the Nexens come out on top.

If R&D budgets were the only factor as to what makes a manufacturer good, then sure, Michelin would be right up there, but they're not.

Oh, and I do have a quick car, but it was the power that I stressed. I'm pretty much at the limit of what a 1.4 litre diesel can do with standard conrods and gearbox/clutch. When Alex Wharton gets a front ended A2 and sticks a 1.8T or 1.9TDi, then he'll leapfrog me no doubt.

There are also A2s in Europe which are vastly more powerful than Tank and quicker too.

Cheers,

Mike

[Emm]

Thing is, what is 'better'?

Sure Goodyear F1s have the best grip of any tyres I've used and the Yoko A539s were the cheapest. The balance of things though, when you factor in price, means that in my opinion, the Nexens come out on top.

If R&D budgets were the only factor as to what makes a manufacturer good, then sure, Michelin would be right up there, but they're not.

Oh, and I do have a quick car, but it was the power that I stressed. I'm pretty much at the limit of what a 1.4 litre diesel can do with standard conrods and gearbox/clutch. When Alex Wharton gets a front ended A2 and sticks a 1.8T or 1.9TDi, then he'll leapfrog me no doubt.

There are also A2s in Europe which are vastly more powerful than Tank and quicker too.

Cheers,

Mike

So they are not up there as being a top tyre? Surely they can't all be wrong

Number 1 in innovation for over 100 years
4000 people dedicated to R&D with the largest R&D budget in the tyre sector.
Number 1 choice for European consumers
Consumers are up to five times more likely to ask for Michelin compared to its nearest competitor
Number 1 in satisfaction amongst European tyre dealers
Number 1 in high performance with European vehicle manufacturers.
More than 200 homologations with 1 high performance vehicle in 4 fitted with Michelin tyres.
Number 1 in motorsport on all surfaces The ONLY brand that has won in every major world-wide motorsport discipline (F1, WRC, Moto GP, Endurance...)
Number 1 for safety amongst European consumers
Number 1 manufacturer fitment to Porsche Boxster, Caymen, 911

P.S. Its not a pissing contest about quick cars, just a response to your arrogant statement.:D

[Skipton01]

So they are not up there as being a top tyre? Surely they can't all be wrong

Number 1 in innovation for over 100 years
4000 people dedicated to R&D with the largest R&D budget in the tyre sector.
Number 1 choice for European consumers
Consumers are up to five times more likely to ask for Michelin compared to its nearest competitor
Number 1 in satisfaction amongst European tyre dealers
Number 1 in high performance with European vehicle manufacturers.
More than 200 homologations with 1 high performance vehicle in 4 fitted with Michelin tyres.
Number 1 in motorsport on all surfaces The ONLY brand that has won in every major world-wide motorsport discipline (F1, WRC, Moto GP, Endurance...)
Number 1 for safety amongst European consumers
Number 1 manufacturer fitment to Porsche Boxster, Caymen, 911

P.S. Its not a pissing contest about quick cars, just a response to your arrogant statement.:D
In your view, it's arrogant, in my view, it's a statement of fact. You should know be better than that Emm.

And on the bit you highlighted, "If R&D budgets were the only factor as to what makes a manufacturer good, then sure, Michelin would be right up there, but they're not." - the 'they're not' part at the end was relating to the R&D budgets, as in R&D budgets are not the only factor, as opposed to saying that Michelin are not up there. The marvels of the English language eh?

You are quite entitled to your opinion on Michelins - personally, I wouldn't touch them, even though I can get 'em cheap at Costco. Interestingly, I can find no impartial evidence to support your quoted statements, which, funnily enough, are on a Michelin website:

http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20060209110718

Go to any other major manufactuers website, and I'm sure you'll find similar claims.

Shall we draw a line under this?
Cheers,

Mike

[Emm]

In your view, it's arrogant, in my view, it's a statement of fact. You should know be better than that Emm.

And on the bit you highlighted, "If R&D budgets were the only factor as to what makes a manufacturer good, then sure, Michelin would be right up there, but they're not." - the 'they're not' part at the end was relating to the R&D budgets, as in R&D budgets are not the only factor, as opposed to saying that Michelin are not up there. The marvels of the English language eh?

You are quite entitled to your opinion on Michelins - personally, I wouldn't touch them, even though I can get 'em cheap at Costco. Interestingly, I can find no impartial evidence to support your quoted statements, which, funnily enough, are on a Michelin website:

http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=20060209110718

Go to any other major manufactuers website, and I'm sure you'll find similar claims.

Shall we draw a line under this?Cheers,

Mike

Yeah, I’m only messing, I find the most interesting discussion on here are when you are challenged over you extensive knowledge, and I know you can take it.
The Michelin statements however are either via Independent surveys carried out on behalf of Michelin or just simply facts. The top tyre companies can’t all fit 1 in 4 high performance cars or win in all the above disciplines. I would be interested to here how long the Nexens last.

Still its all good banter:D

[dan_b]

I think the point is you need to define what you think "better" means, as different people are looking for different things in tyre performance, and driving style is as important as chassis design and engine torque in how a tyre gets melted.

My personal view is that the best tyre I've ever had on any car is the GoodYear F1 DSG3 - this had an amazing mix of low speed traction, high speed stability, braking performance, aquaplaning resistance, broke away smoothly on the limit, and still seemed to offer grip when cold. Sure it didn't last particularly long, but it's a high-performance summer tyre, you wouldn't expect it to. Oh and it was quiet too.

The worst tyre I've ever had was the Yoko A520, this was bordering on lethal in the wet and/or cold. I burned through a set of those in 4000 miles on a previous FWD car, not good at all. And the ride quality was awful, and once they'd given way they snapped at you badly.

With tyres I will always state my position - I'm looking for a tyre that will give me more grip - I want shorter stopping distances than normal, excellent wet and cold performance (it's rarely dry and warm in the UK!) and good low speed traction. It just might save your life. If that means spending more, then so be it.

There was a very comprehensive test in a recent car mag (I can't remember which one) where they put 3 top brand tyres (GoodYear, Michelin and Bridgestone I think) and thrashed them round a track in 3 different cars (FWD, RWD and 4WD), wet and dry - in every test the GoodYear F1 Assymetric came out the best with the fastest lap times - they said running the GoodYear was the equivalent of adding 50BHP to these cars because of the higher performance it offered - better braking, better traction, better acceleration, better cornering power. That was in both wet and dry conditions.

You pay your money and you make your choice. I see my car has a set of Pirellis fitted by the previous owner!

[humps]

I think the point is you need to define what you think "better" means
...
There was a very comprehensive test in a recent car mag (I can't remember which one) where they put 3 top brand tyres (GoodYear, Michelin and Bridgestone I think) and thrashed them round a track in 3 different cars (FWD, RWD and 4WD), wet and dry - in every test the GoodYear F1 Assymetric came out the best with the fastest lap times - they said running the GoodYear was the equivalent of adding 50BHP to these cars because of the higher performance it offered - better braking, better traction, better acceleration, better cornering power. That was in both wet and dry conditions. ...

Too many Porsche owners in our company, Michellin MPSC is by far the most popular tyres for them on (except R-comps) and off track. They must be doing something right. The test you mentioned is of course a good test, but one factor people often don't count against laptimes is longetivity. Can it sustain the performance over say 2 track days? Which brings us back to your first (very good) point! My OE Michellins lasted so long in a way it was great! But I want a bit more grip and a little less noise at a cheaper price too. My new Toyos are very grippy but I'm sure they won't last. So how do I judge which is better?

However, I'll never forget the fiasco in the USA GP where Michellin's tyres would break into pieces under banking!

[Gexx]

Interesting thread :)

I'm having the tyres replaced as I type - with the Mitchelin Pilot Sports. I had a good look at the Falkens and the Nexens, but in the end I know I'm really happy with the Pilots and they have done everything I wanted. The problem is that tyres are a really personal choice and if you get ones you don't like there is no money back option.

I hated the Pzero Neros the A2 came with - but I really liked them on my imprezza turbo. Likewise I tried Goodyear eagle F1's on the mx5 and really liked the gentle breakaway characteristics on roundabouts - but would not put them on the A2.

For me the Pilots have low road noise - seem to absorb transmitted shock (sport suspension) last a long, long time and handle pretty well. I'm not saying other tyres couldn't do the same - it just expensive finding out!

Maybe we should set up a A2 tyre test drive database!

[Emm]

How long did the Michelins last Gexx?

[spike]

In the first post of this thread, birds01 asked about tread depth and when to change tyres. The attached link from Conti suggests that 3mm is probably the best compromise, wet braking distances being one of the key factors.
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/uk/en/continental/tyres_for_life/themes/16_v_3mm/16mm_v_3mm_en.html

Cheers Spike

[birdsd01]

Thanks Spike! I had found the rest of the discussion very useful though. I have now got 2 Pirelli P6000's fitted to the front. They seem OK, but the tyre place has had a few problems balancing them up. After the 3rd attempt they are OK, but probably not as good as the old ones. I am going to give them a few hundred miles to settle in then take to it back if I am still unsure. They suggested putting them on the back, as the vibration might be less in this position? Not sure of the logic here, but I will update everyone in a couple of weeks when they have done a few long trips.

Cheers,

Dave

[murdo]

Have had Nexen N6000 fitted to the front of the car today. The previous Michelins were still more than 3mm across, but badly worn at the outer shoulder due to misalignment and there was a nasty chunk out the nearside tyrewall where the previous keeper lost a fight with a kerbstone. Have never bought 'budget' tyres before, but having followed this thread, a chat with the Skip and some research on the net I have taken the plunge. Brilliant value - £65 each inc. valves/balance and laser wheel alignment thrown in free! For anyone north of the border I will highly recommend McConechy's.
Lets see how they fair over a few thousand miles of driving in the rain :D

[spike]

Hi Dave
The garage is kind of right. With out of balance tyres on the front, you feel all the vibration through the steering wheel. On the back the vibration is still there but much less noticible.

Cheers Spike

[ULP]

I missed this discussion the first time round but would agree that tyres are a personal choice dependant on a number of factors. My Punto JTD went through a front set of Goodyear Eagles in 10,000 miles because they were very grippy but wore very quickly.

For those of us with 16" wheels the options are pretty limited anyway as you can only get four tyres for them - I use Pirelli P6000's which are generally derided by most people but on the A2 seem to work well from all perspectives; wet grip, dry grip, feel, ride, braking etc.

Also, it is good practice to put new tyres on the back and the part-worn ones on the front.

I've just put two new tyres on the back and moved the rear tyres to the front after my OSF tyre became illigal on the inside wall; it would seem the balancing was out as the wheel trembled ever since I had the front suspension rebuilt (the doughnuts must have knocked a few weights off...). It's now spot-on after having all the wheels balanced, including the spare which runs with my old NSF tyre on (4mm across it still).

[birdsd01]

Bit of an update! Vibration still noticable at 75-80mph (sorry officer!), so went back to trye place and got them to swap back to front (new Pirelli's go to back, older Conti's move to front). Had them all balanced again, and the vibration is still there??? Any ideas what may be the possible causes?? There is nothing felt throught the seat, it all comes through the steering wheel.
Is trye balancing a black art?? Does anyone know a good wheel balancer in the north east?? I am little confused now!!:confused:

Being to wonder whether it was there all along! Or that I am expecting the car to be perfect!!

Any ideas gladly taken!

Cheers,

Dave

PS Conti's feel much better on the front than the Pirellis, though they are a bit noiser.

[the grim reeper]

I work with new cars and some of the mondeo's that came in with conti's sport contact on and after 11.5k they are bald, but on my focus after 58k the rear tyres got replaced, the fronts had allready been done. But what happens is they put hard wearing tyres on new cars so you will think they are good ill get them again and then they don't last as long.

I have conti's on mine but at the time i couldn't get hold of anthing else, but i have found some budget or inter' tyres transmit alot of road noise back through the car

Cheers Phil

[Brabazon]

My A2 is a 2003 with 40k miles on it, and I think the tyres are the originals that came with the car. The tread is still ok, but the sidewalls are showing signs of perishing a bit, with a lot of cracking appearing in the rubber. I'm wondering if I should I change them as a precaution? As I say, the treads are still fine, but how dangerous is it to continue with sidewalls that are cracked with age...!?

Also, there's a bit of a judder at 70+mph through the steering wheel, so I was thinking new tyres might cure that as well when all balanced up...?

Cheers,

Jon

[the grim reeper]

as your tyres wheer they sometimes get out of balance, but if your sidewalls are very cracked it may be worth getting them checked over

Cheers Phil

[Jonesy]

Just been reading this thread and I am amazed at how many tyres Skipton has got through! I have has my A2 for nearly 7.5 years & 103,000 miles. The car came on Dunlops, and I replaced the front tyres with Michellins twice. I have been getting more than 30,000 miles out of a front set. The rear tyres have only been replaced once, and not due to wearing out, but due to age. I put a set of Avon A539's on the rear. That is not meant as criticism, Skipton, probably just an indication of how my car has lived on the motorway!
On another note, to increase your options for the 16'' wheels, my friend who works at Yokohama tyres, in Milton Keynes, informs me that Audi has also homologated a 195/45 16 tyre for the A2. This massively increases your choice, and a 195/45 16 is a very common tyre size, so the costs are much lower than the 185/50 16.

[dan_b]

My A2 is a 2003 with 40k miles on it, and I think the tyres are the originals that came with the car. The tread is still ok, but the sidewalls are showing signs of perishing a bit, with a lot of cracking appearing in the rubber. I'm wondering if I should I change them as a precaution? As I say, the treads are still fine, but how dangerous is it to continue with sidewalls that are cracked with age...!?

Change them - that rubber is shot - if it's perished and cracked it basically means it's unable to flex correctly under load, it will also be significantly less "sticky" now, and the cracks means it is vulnerable to damage, either physical impact, or through chemical penetration into the inner plys.

Tyres are the single most important safety feature on your car - those tiny areas of rubber are the only things keeping you on the straight and narrow!

At the London Cruise Fit on Sunday one of the owners there had a set of original fit tyres still on the rear wheels - they too were cracked, glazed and clearly perished. Rubber doesn't last.

[bretti_kivi]

3mm is also my personal limit for summer tyres, for winter tyres it's around 5mm.

Quick story; last summer, we wore out the German winter tyres we brought with us for the 307.
Then, winter turned up, and I had a couple of very amusing episodes, throwing the car around a corner at 20km/h. It slid across two lanes, no amount of opposite lock would correct it, and I had a hell of a time trying to get up the hill outside the house on several occasions.

Swapping the worn tyres for the real, spiked, decent ones was a revelation. Far noisier but so much more grip on snow it was silly. Less fun...testing a Maverick was magic. That didn't have any ESP, so feeling the back kick out and understanding that gas+opposite lock was the answer was sooo cool - implementation for me was no problem but my wife didn't want that.

We then put Goodyear Hydragrips on the 307 this spring; they are really rather good. Good grip, excellent in the wet. Reasonably quiet, too. It squirms when braking from high speeds (55mph+) on gravel, but the exhaustion of grip is also progressive there; there's a sliiiiide towards the outside and you've already taken your foot off, so it snaps back into line and you can power out of the corner. I haven't tried that with the A2 recently - I ought to, but it's more fun in the winter where the slide gets quite heavy on very, very icy roads.

Bret

[dan_b]

Little known fact - the wider the tyre, the more dangerous a low tread-depth becomes in wet conditions.