E3=a2

[Poor_John]

Hi All,

More rumours of a replacement for our A2s and more

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Search-Results/Spyshots/Audis-electric-car-plans-five-new-battery-models-160109/?content-block=1

John.

[Trig]

Prefer that E thing to the other "New A2" pix that are being shown, looks more A2 like..

[Skipton01]

That side view mock-up is awful, just a Jazz mixed with an Aygo. If they stick to that concept, they've forgotten the original purpose if economy with practicality - anyone can make a small economical car, but the ethos behind Audi is to make advancements via technology.

Cheers

Mike

[dan_b]

The fully electric, driven by batteries, car is a total technological blind alley as well. There is simply no point in a car that you drive for X miles (less when you turn the radio, lights and heater on!), then it conks out and it takes you 8hours to re-charge it. Absolutely pointless.

[Skipton01]

Very true and admirably demonstrated by Captain Slow last year. Hydrogen is the way forward and as long as fuel stations are available and cheaper ways to make it are developed, this will be the future of personal motoring.

Come on Audi, stop playing around with little incremental steps and let's have a proper demonstration of Vorsprung!!

Cheers

Mike

[dan_b]

Nuclear - that's the way forward :)

[Skipton01]

I know you're making light of this Dan, but the Yanks did try installing a small reactor in a bomber back in the 60's!! They wanted to have a plane with virtually unlimited range, but they couldn't pull it off, and then there were the safety issues too!

Could you imagine what nanny state Britain would make of having thousands if tiny little nuclear reactors bombing around the streets (pun intended!)

Cheers

Mike

[dan_b]

yep, I remember reading about that once - lots of the 1950s "what will life be like in the future" stories had nuclear reactors in the home, nuclear planes etc. Of course nuclear subs and aircraft carriers show the benefit, but they're a somewhat different proposition aren't they!

[Skipton01]

Err, yes - somewhat fewer in numbers worldwide and with less space restriction than a typical small 5-door hatch!!

Cheers

Mike

[dan_b]

Quality :)

[moogaloo]

The fully electric, driven by batteries, car is a total technological blind alley as well. There is simply no point in a car that you drive for X miles (less when you turn the radio, lights and heater on!), then it conks out and it takes you 8hours to re-charge it. Absolutely pointless.

There are solutions to this problem being investigated. One being you drive into a fuel station they remove your empty fuel cell and put in a full fuel cell, you pay and you are on your way.

Another is that there are some batteries now that can be charged in a few minutes rather than hours. Put you need a powerpoint that cen deliver energy at this rate so again specialist power points.

The key to any of these technologies is infrastructure and Electric does look the most promosing in the long term. Though in the short term, fuel efficiency, plug in hybrids and hydrogen are likely to be the next gen.

[maersk]

WHEN, will people realise that electric is not the panacea as all it does is shift the pollution to another place i.e. the power station - unless you are French and generate most of your electricity from Hydro or Nuclear means.

In jolly old 'nuclear free' Labour Britain we are stuck with ancient coal fired powerstations (despite inventing nuclear generation and developing it throughout the 70s) and pathetic wind turbines, which do not generate during high pressure anticyclones in Winter when they are most needed............................................ ..

The answer is a V8 and less tax........................



/unrant/

[moogaloo]

Not quite sure what you are saying. Almost every fuel for a car has it's carbon cost somewhere else whether petrol, diesal, hydrogen etc. Unless cars can generate there own power and they won't in any kind of sufficent quantity this will allways be the case.

What electric does do is to shift the reliance on a single fuel cost and means that if countries change there electrical production to lower carbon methods then the benefit is seen without any further technological advances in the car industry.

I also understand that the electric motor is by far way more efficent then a diesal or petrol engine.

[ecoangel]

Compare the Tesla with the original Lotus Elise or new MINI D with the electric one launched last year:

So you plug your BMW MINI in to your local COAL fired power station and
extract 28 kWh drive 150 miles: (some say 32KwH)

Result? a minimum of 116 g/km CO2

Then there is the battery cost and replacement to consider.

Compared to MINI diesel: 104 g/km

or Audi A2 1.2 TDI: 81 g/km

The UK has almost the lowest renewable electricity generation in EU. I think only Malta is maybe worse.

This means COAL and most of our power stations are not latest and greatest in efficiency terms. Using CO2 per KwH production from Coal fired station that does NOT include mining of coal or transport. From official EU report on Electricity generation - the best factor for new supercritical coal plant of 646g CO2/kwh. Most are 1000g/Kwh. It is the powerstation effiiency to customer NOT total from coal mine to power socket:

"According to the survey, the most efficient power stations produce approx. 850 grams CO2 per kWh produced, compared with the average figure of 1,000 grams CO2 per kWh. But the pressure is on all producers to reduce these figures, since according to the EU Environmental Agency, coal-fired power stations alone account for 22% of total greenhouse gas emissions in the EU.

Professor Kim Dam-Johansen of the Technical University of Denmark told Ingeniøren that it should be possible to reduce emissions to around 700 grams CO2 per kWh by increasing the steam pressure in the turbines, either through retro-fitting existing plants or building modern new ones.

And if biomass and waste are permitted as a fuels, the figure could come down even further, says Dam-Johansen. A 20% addition of CO2-neutral fuel would be able to bring emissions down below 600 grams CO2 per kWh. "

Worldwide over 66% of electricity is produced from Fossil Fuels. In the USA most is from Oil and theuy have large coal reserves. China import Coal fro Australia - how much CO2 to transport it from there?

18% from renewables of which 1st is Hydro (), second is Bio Fuels() and Solar is just 0.2% of that 18% total.

Most people do not have access to cheap electricity or even any of it (eg Africa):

"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population,
have no access to electricity today. Eighty percent of these people
live in rural areas of the developing world, mainly in South Asia and
sub-Saharan Africa where rapid urban migration and population growth
will occur over the next
several decades"

That said I actually like electric cars - the motors are very torquey and efficient but the battery technology is not what some are claiming.

Venturi seem accurate with their Fetish and Eclectic cars:

http://www.venturieclectic.fr/

eg: Eclectic 2009 model:

50km range between charges:

Torjan 48V 145Ah, 7Kwh, 500 cycles or optional Lithium pack 48V 240Ah, 5 hr recharge and 1200 cycles.

So only 60,000km or 37,282 miles per battery pack.

Battery Cost? Around 7x 1200 = 8400 Euros for the latter

Bolivia may benefit in the rush for more batteries:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7707847.stm

But:

"Bolivia's government is wary of the environmental damage mass Lithium extraction could cause.
The mining minister, Mr Eschazu, has a stark message for Western firms.

"The capitalist leaders have to change," he says.

"If all the world had consumers like North America, everyone with a car, it would grind to a halt.

"It is also going to generate pollution, not just from fossil fuels but also from lithium plants, which produce sulphur dioxide. This isn't a magic solution."

It is not a view likely to go down well in the offices of Toyota and General Motors."

A brand new 1191cc VW 3L engine is rather cheaper and weighs 100kg and lasts well over 200,000km.

Clear as mud then?

Best