brake shoes slipping off wheel cylinder piston

Au2ro

Member
I have had problems with the drum brakes on my A2 ever since getting it but was happy keeping on maintaining them until the garage seemed not to want to help solve the underlying problem without me chucking loads more money at them.

The rear brakes have often been binding and the garage has replaced the wheel cylinders several times as well as shoes and drums recently and the cables have been replaced too but less recently.

The last time I took it in they said that brake shoes were slipping off wheel cylinder piston and damaging the cylinders which is why they had to replace them so frequently and said that the backing plate would need replacing this time. Of course they quoted an horrendous price for doing this.

Anyway I had a look at the brakes myself thinking that I would maybe tackle it myself and save the labour charges and spend more on a decent make of replacement parts, especially a good pair of cylinders that will last, Brembos or whatever anyone here could recommend.

When taking the drum off I did see what the garage meant as one shoe was sitting on the rubber behind the cylinder's piston instead of on the piston itself. I noticed that the piston had a ridge on it on one side that I guess should keep the shoe from slipping off but it must have been worn or there must have been too much travel in the shoe towards the backing plate for the shoe to stay sitting on the piston as it just kept slipping of after I re-seated it and moved the shoes from front to back moving the pistons to check that they travelled easily enough.
The strange thing was that on the other side of the cylinder the ridge on the piston was positioned towards the drum rather than the backing plate but that shoe was quite secure and did not slip off as I moved shoes from front to back.
Should this ridge be on the backing plate side? Or are there different makes of cylinder that have a better design so as not to allow the shoes to slip off the piston so easily? It would be great to find out that just the cylinders would need replacing with better designed ones to fix this problem without worrying about replacing the backing plate too (though I might as well just replace the shoes and drums as well at the same time anyway).

I have a local place that does powder coating which has done my wheels before and I might just get the drums done there after seeing the results on this forum in another thread. Actually, come to think of it, my original Audi wheels need doing again too.

I have done this kind of thing before (pads, shoes, disks and drums etc.) with other cars so think that I am capable. I have read through several threads on this site on advice for replacing shoes and drums, and that has helped a lot. However, removing and replacing the backing plate looks to be quite a job. Does anyone have any advice on doing or not doing this as the case may be?
 
I have just been reading more posts about drum brakes and noticed mention of a "teflon pad that the shoes rest on". Presumably this is attached to the backing plate and you need to take the shoes off to inspect it. Could this be needing replacing and be why the shoes slip off the piston?
Maybe I don't actually need a backing plate after all if I can replace this part?
Would the teflon pad be part of a brake fixing kit or something to be ordered separately?
 
Sounds strange and not something that's been reported on other A2s.
There are some good pics of assembled brake shoes in this post. Is there anything obviously different in your set-up - http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthrea...r-drivers-side-brake-drum&p=203535#post203535

I've not noticed any Teflon pads before but the parts list shows (item 3) as a glide piece which could possibly be them - http://vagfans.info/EN/audi/RDW/A2/...e-wheel-brake-cylinder-brake-shoe-with-lining

It would really help if you could post some photos of the drums showing the problem areas

Cheers Spike
 
Sounds strange and not something that's been reported on other A2s.
There are some good pics of assembled brake shoes in this post. Is there anything obviously different in your set-up - http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthrea...r-drivers-side-brake-drum&p=203535#post203535
Not much different, apart from there seems to be a different wheel cylinder piston with a deeper groove to secure the shoes.

I've not noticed any Teflon pads before but the parts list shows (item 3) as a glide piece which could possibly be them - http://vagfans.info/EN/audi/RDW/A2/...e-wheel-brake-cylinder-brake-shoe-with-lining
That must be them - the glide piece. Elsewhere on the forum I have seen them described as nylon. I guess that they could get worn or even melt if the brakes are binding and heat up too much. If they are worn or gone then the shoe would move further and rest on the rusty old backing plate which can't help.
Where would one get replacement glide pieces.

It would really help if you could post some photos of the drums showing the problem areas

Cheers Spike
I did not think of that when I had the drum off. I will take them off again as soon as the weather clears up, I have no garage so don't fancy getting out and under in the rain.

I think that I should just go ahead and order the drums shoes and cylinders as I think that would be the best way to start.
If I can find backing plates I will order them too if I can't find the glide pieces, but maybe I would need to order them along with the backing plates?

Thanks for your interest Spike
 
Well, it looks like backing plates will be a bit expensive, the local Audi dealership quoted 62.69 each, but at least the glide pieces are only 48p each and I would need to order them separately.
 
It would really help if you could post some photos of the drums showing the problem areas
OK, the skies cleared long enough for me to get the drum off again, here's the pictures:-


brakes-1.jpgbrakes-0.jpgbrakes-2.jpgbrakes-4.jpgbrakes-7.jpgbrakes-10.jpg

1) Drum off
2) Rear shoe slipped off piston (notice very small ridge on piston, not sufficient to prevent shoe slipping off)
3) Front shoe still on piston
4) Rear shoe put back in place on piston
5) Gap between shoe and backplate showing glide piece
6) Drum

OK, what's wrong with these pictures?

I have ordered parts; drums, shoes (fully pre-assembled kit) and cylinders, but not backing plate or glide pieces yet.
 
I had the chance to take off the other side, in between showers, no pictures, but the problem was not apparent there. I did notice that the self adjustment wedge was the wrong way around - the bump on the top facing the hole on the shoe rather than facing the backing plate so I removed and reversed that. While doing this the shoes stayed on the wheel pistons no problem.

All I can think is that the cylinder is somehow out of alignment on the bad side. I could not easily measure it because the backing plate is rather rusted up making any comparisons between sides rather meaningless but just maybe somehow the cylinder piston is further from the backing plate at the back than it is at the front allowing the back pad to slip off but not the front? I can't think how this happened unless the garage used undue force removing an old cylinder and bent the backing plate where the cylinder is mounted causing the new one to be misaligned when fitting it? Very hard to prove without fitting a new backing plate though. Ah well the rain is off so I will go an put the wheel back on now.

Damn, the handbrake is not self adjusting now, even after wire brushing and greasing the wedge. I guess the shoe jumped off the piston again after putting the drum on so that won't help...
 
Last edited:
Ref this pic, the small groove on the piston for shoe location seems normal. - http://www.a2oc.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3285&d=1245678874

The use of Teflon gliders suggests the edge of the shoe should be in contact with these to give stability.
With the shoes in the piston grooves, does the gap between the edge of the shoe and gliders vary between the top and bottom gliders. This could happen if something relating to the piston or its mounting is not right.

Cheers Spike

PS. See you have added another post before I pressed the send button but we are thinking along similar lines. Wonder if the wrong piston has been fitted with a different offset which is skewing the shoes.
 
Last edited:
Ref this pic, the small groove on the piston for shoe location seems normal. -
And I was hoping that it was not normal, that in fact it was too small. The end of my pistons are flat with a small ridge just at one side. I was hoping to get cylinders with pistons with with larger ridges, both sides if possible. As far as I can tell from most pictures that I have seen, the ridge, but just not so small, seems to be on the outside or both sides, or rather more like a groove in the middle of the end of the piston.

The use of Teflon gliders suggests the edge of the shoe should be in contact with these to give stability.
With the shoes in the piston grooves, does the gap between the edge of the shoe and gliders vary between the top and bottom gliders.
I would have to double check but I think that when the shoe is resting against the piston ridge there is a bigger gap at the top than at the bottom, the point I think, is that there is sufficient gap to allow the shoe to slip off and that can't be right. The pistons on the current cylinders are ~15mm diameter and I have ordered 17.46mm bore cylinders, hoping that might help.

This could happen if something relating to the piston or its mounting is not right.
Yes, that's what I thought.


PS. See you have added another post before I pressed the send button but we are thinking along similar lines. Wonder if the wrong piston has been fitted with a different offset which is skewing the shoes.
I will see when I get the new cylinders. I just hope that the same thing does not happen with them, otherwise it will be necessary to try a new backing plate I guess. I just wish that I could find one from a supplier other than the dealer. The problem is I don't really want to take the hub and baring off myself if I can help it. I don't have the tools that I think would be required for this.
 
Hi,

From your first photo it looks as if the right shoe is flat against the back plate which suggests that the spacer (or whatever it is called) which supposed to keep the shoe from slipping of the cylinder is either worn or missing.
Someone please correct me but the little ridge on the piston cup is intended to prevent the shoe slipping forward rather then back.

I could be wrong.

Where is skipton when you need him:p


Regards
Mike
 
Hi, From your first photo it looks as if the right shoe is flat against the back plate which suggests that the spacer (or whatever it is called) which supposed to keep the shoe from slipping of the cylinder is either worn or missing.
The fifth picture shows that the "spacer" is not missing, but it could be worn.

Someone please correct me but the little ridge on the piston cup is intended to prevent the shoe slipping forward rather then back.
I would like to be corrected on this too, but as the shoe was slipping off I thought that it might be because it was the wrong way around.


I could be wrong.
So could I but I want to know before I start trying to fix it...
 
And I was hoping that it was not normal, that in fact it was too small. The end of my pistons are flat with a small ridge just at one side. I was hoping to get cylinders with pistons with with larger ridges, both sides if possible. As far as I can tell from most pictures that I have seen, the ridge, but just not so small, seems to be on the outside or both sides, or rather more like a groove in the middle of the end of the piston.

I would have to double check but I think that when the shoe is resting against the piston ridge there is a bigger gap at the top than at the bottom, the point I think, is that there is sufficient gap to allow the shoe to slip off and that can't be right. The pistons on the current cylinders are ~15mm diameter and I have ordered 17.46mm bore cylinders, hoping that might help.

Yes, that's what I thought.



I will see when I get the new cylinders. I just hope that the same thing does not happen with them, otherwise it will be necessary to try a new backing plate I guess. I just wish that I could find one from a supplier other than the dealer. The problem is I don't really want to take the hub and baring off myself if I can help it. I don't have the tools that I think would be required for this.

Removing the hub with the bearing is quite easy. You just need a quite big socket.
Remove the nut (5) and the hub with the bearing comes off.
http://www.partsbase.org/audi/audi-...am-with-attachment-parts-see-workshop-manual/
 
At last, I have been informed that the parts are on their way, 3 weeks after order - not good, though I entered my VIN wrong on the order so they "had to" question that before sending them.

I did manage to get a LHS backing plate off ebay for a tenner, brand new too, however it had an "E" at the end of the part number, it had better fit.

I am still wondering about removing the hub myself. I have read that a new hub nut will be required so will order one of those, but is it OK to replace it without using a torque wrench?
 
Always fit a new hub nut! If you don't have a torque wrench, I really think you should get one if you plan on doing more repairs yourself. I have a pretty good one which cost me about £40 here in Sweden.
 
Be careful when unscrewing the brake pipe from the wheel cylinder. The tube nut often rusts onto the pipe and causes the pipe to twist and snap during the removal process. One club member got round this potential problem by holding the nut and unscrewing the cylinder from the pipe.

Cheers Spike
 
I am still wondering about removing the hub myself. I have read that a new hub nut will be required so will order one of those, but is it OK to replace it without using a torque wrench?

Removing the wheel hub provides better access to replace the brake components - be careful though as it also houses the ABS reluctor that can easily be damaged. When you fit the wheel cylinders, ensure you have the lip on the pistons closest to you and position the linings behind the lips to prevent the shoes from slipping off. The hub nut MUST be replaced and MUST be torqued to 70Nm and then a further 30 degrees angular setting.

May I suggest that if you don't have the necessary skills or tools you should consider entrusting a job of this importance to a qualified professional.

blue skies
tony
 
Always fit a new hub nut! If you don't have a torque wrench, I really think you should get one if you plan on doing more repairs yourself. I have a pretty good one which cost me about £40 here in Sweden.
Thanks, that's what I thought; torque wrench required, but I really don't think that I would need one for anything else so it's a bit much of an expense just to replace the backing plate.
 
Be careful when unscrewing the brake pipe from the wheel cylinder. The tube nut often rusts onto the pipe and causes the pipe to twist and snap during the removal process. One club member got round this potential problem by holding the nut and unscrewing the cylinder from the pipe.

Cheers Spike

Yes, I had read about this before, and I even watched as one of the garages that I took it to had a hell of a job to get it off before realising that they could do it that way, so I was prepared to get it off this way.
 
Removing the wheel hub provides better access to replace the brake components
I am only needing to remove the hub to get the backing plate on, I would not even consider doing that just to replace the brake shoes
be careful though as it also houses the ABS reluctor that can easily be damaged.
Noted, another reason not to tackle removing the hub myself.
When you fit the wheel cylinders, ensure you have the lip on the pistons closest to you and position the linings behind the lips to prevent the shoes from slipping off.
One shoe was slipping off the backing plate side of the piston, which is why I was advised to replace the backing plate, but I did wonder about the position of the lip when looking for myself.
The hub nut MUST be replaced and MUST be torqued to 70Nm and then a further 30 degrees angular setting.
More useful information, thanks - Is this the same for all A2s though, I had read 1.2 TDI running gear: 175 Nm and was not sure if that applied to all TDIs?


May I suggest that if you don't have the necessary skills or tools you should consider entrusting a job of this importance to a qualified professional.
I am confident in replacing brake shoes etc. and was really just concerned about removing the hub to replace the backing plate, thanks for the advice though.

As for actually removing the hub, are there any other tools required - pulling tools, and fitting tools.
 
Back
Top