Formal Request For Moderation Team Stance

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J3FVW

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Earlier today I started a new thread in the classified section of this forum. This thread was titled ADVANCE NOTICE Soon selling ‘02 1.4 petrol SE (apologies if there are any factual errors in the title I have just stated).

Unfortunately my thread has now been deleted, I believe, on the grounds that I was fishing for sales.

I am sure that many members read the original post in the thread and several liked it. You may recall that it was originally posted without a price. The reason being that the car is not in the condition I would want to pass it to a new owner (it is currently in my garage where it has been since February 2017 so needs a little work to get it to a state where I could hold my head high passing ownership on). From memory I said that interested parties should follow (by this I meant subscribe to) my thread so that when I posted up to date pictures and a price they would be the first to know. I do not see anything wrong in that.

My post also went on to state that I have a large stock of quality and in some cases rare parts that I would also be selling, again when I post pictures and prices. My request to follow (subscribe to) the thread also applied. Again this seems reasonable.

I was contacted by the moderation team asking me to add a price to my thread (although my post went on to say that it wasn’t really an ad at this point - note the title ADVANCE NOTICE). Immediately I added a price to the car but not to the following paragraphs outlining the parts that would be available to buy once I had posted the pictures and prices. I simply do not know at the present moment what prices to add to most of the items I have and given the large stock I have amassed it will take time to photograph, price and list all of them. As the title clearly said in block capitals it was an advance notice that the mentioned parts plus many others would be going on sale soon.

At no point did I invite offers or seek to incite a bidding war as has subsequently been suggested. I acknowledge that my thread was not conventional but it explicitly instructed members of the action to take should they be interested in my car and associated spare parts when they were in a saleable state.

I am furious that my thread has been deleted and now see this as a matter of principle. In words which have already been relayed to one or more members of the moderation team I feel I have been tried and convicted of a crime I have not committed.

A request for a more formal notice of the stance from the moderation team has not been forthcoming. Although it goes against how I would wish to conduct myself in this situation I now feel the need to ask for that stance to be made public and to highlight the specifics of my perceived wrong doing so that in future remaining members do not suffer the same treatment.

If, hand on heart, I felt I had conducted myself in a manner that deserved my post being deleted then I absolutely would not have spent the last few hours arguing my case in robust terms and now composing this post.

My mind is made up and my A2 is going to be sold whether it is on this forum or elsewhere. As my thread clearly stated this is solely because I wish to move onto a different project car - no other reason. As such I would have been ending my association with the club in the near future anyway but I am now going to leave it with a very bitter taste in my mouth.

I never thought I would have an axe to grind with those who give up their time to oversee the club for the benefit of everyone else but this episode really has pushed all my wrong buttons.

Thank you to everybody I have had the pleasure of positive dealings with and unless the “team” give me the courtesy of a reply in the next few days I will be deleting my account.

This isn’t an attempt to gain sympathy or calls for me to change my mind - it is somebody taking a stand against something which they totally and utterly disagree with.

I have witnessed some extremely unsavoury behaviour on this forum over the past twelve months and on one occasion made a strong statement about it in defence of those wronged. My next big statement will be the deletion of my account.

Such a shame as there are many on this forum whose help has been genuinely and deeply appreciated but I’m not one to suffer fools gladly so in the next day or two I expect to bid you all farewell unless the “team” alter their stance.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post regardless of what conclusions you draw from it.

Jeff :)
 
I’m a returning newbie but from my brief reading of marketplace rules and ads and dealing with folks on here it’s pretty strait forward that if you post in marketplace you put the price of your goods...

If I was looking to post something like you did I’d probably post in general saying I’d found a new dream car situation etc etc...

I really don’t think anyone had any malice intended, i wasn’t bothered by your post as I’m pretty laid back but I can see why moderators or others might have had a different view not because they were upset by you but that it makes it more difficult to admin marketplace if they left it there...

Also, I’d simply just post in marketplace when I have something that is ready to sell, priced etc etc...

Just my two cents...
 
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Well Jeff, I don't know the details of your conversations with mods over the last few hours. All I can offer is my sympathies with you on your honest dealings previously on the forum. I can only recall my own dealing with you being beyond the call of duty, and in the true spirit of the forums aims to "not profit unduly from buying and selling on the forum" - ie your good fortune buying something from a dealer, turned into my good fortune as you sold the cheap parts to me at cost price.

Hope you do stick around Jeff, would be mortified to see you disappear :)
 
Sorry to hear you are cheesed off Jeff. I do tend to think that the term "classifieds" means that stuff there is for sale, not almost for sale. Really tricky one for mods I imagine. I know on a bike forum I frequent they have had lots of issues with folk "fishing" for sales via "what's it worth threads". Am sure this is not the case with you, but mods need to keep a consistent line on classifieds otherwise they get accused of double standards (favouritism?). Have a cup of tea and hope you stick around.
 
My view.

Rules are essential, as long as they are fair and applied without bias and have a genuine purpose.

Unfortunately the best rules sometimes cause problems for genuine well meaning and well respected members like Jeff.

There have definitely been examples of people asking "What price should I sell my car / parts for?" posts that are genuine requests for help with a suggested value etc.. A2s and their parts, in particular are VERY difficult to sell and so many people simply want a guide.

BUT there are others that use tactics to get around rules and so if that rule was not there, or not applied without bias is unfair.

Jeff was genuine and was merely giving people a heads up, but as we have seen, people were quick to "put their names down" for parts on the thread, so it had the effect of a "for sale" thread whether intended or no (in this case NOT). Those people doing that were also genuine members meaning no harm and understandably wanted to get their names down for parts that they may have been searching for for ages!!!

So the bottom line was that Jeff's thread was a perfectly well-meaning thread, and so were the replies asking to buy parts.

If nothing was said at all about there being no prices, others might then point to times when their threads were queried by moderators for that same reason and that could lead to a feeling of injustice and bias.

Rules will always lead to good people being asked to follow them, that is a side-effect of having rules, they are a "blunt instrument" after all.

BUT having no rules, or worse still, having rules that are applied to some and not others is FAR FAR worse.

I cannot comment on how well the moderation was handled, but I do know that our moderators are fair and well-meaning too. Perhaps in this case the response from the moderators might have been a bit blunt??? (I don't know, I haven't seen it!) Hopefully the moderation was merely a request and not just a deletion without reason or explanation?

Please don't take this moderation personally Jeff, you are a great member and a known and trusted one.

The forum is run by unpaid volunteers and so they sometimes are busy and don't always have the luxury of time to explain their actions (although that is no comfort to Jeff and others like Jeff).

Hopefully this situation can be smoothed over between the moderators and the members involved?

Yes, the rules are that prices should be quoted (even on advance notice of potential sales) Whether you agree with that rule or not it is a rule that exists and is enforced. I have personally seen a huge "stink" over adverts that broke that rule and behind the scenes there was a lot of ill feeling and it was horrible to see that.

So I can see the need for this rule, I can see that it has to apply to "Advance notification of potential sales" too.

I don't like the effect it can have on genuine members in cases like this though, and so a tactful response to the member (Jeff in this case) would have been best, but if the moderator did not have time for that then perhaps a one line PM to Jeff, at the very least, explaining that the advert is breaking the rules and can a discussion happen about resolving that. This might have come across less blunt. I HAVE to temper that comment with the fact that I don't know what the moderator said to Jeff, but I am hoping that something was politely said??

Please can this not boil up into a negative atmosphere, it gives the wrong impression to the many viewers, hopefully Jeff will have his polite explanation and a line can be drawn under this.

Steve B
 
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Some very pertinent points being raised here by all parties!

While I do agree with rules being necessary and a forum for all being run in a totally impartial manner I do feel that perhaps now is time to try and establish a suitable shift to allow the opportunity for an enthusiast to actively seek advice.

My ten pence worth - any a2 parts I part with (like most members) are always preferred to be sold to active A2 enthusiasts who are fastidious about building a perfect A2 and safeguarding a cars future from the scrap man. I do my research on the forum to try and establish a fair price based upon what parts are changing hands for and frequently sell at a loss to help someone in a position of need. However, sometimes advice is needed prior to a sale to seek guidance from those more informed than me. I wish a middle ground could be established to allow people to express a potential sale and seek advice to ensure a treasured car or spare cant be sold at a mutually agreeable price or even find its way to someone in need within the community. I would hate to rip anyone one off and sell to a heart ruling head buyer. A thread coupled with advice and feedback from the community can be reassuring for the seller and a buyer.

I also understand the need to avoid behind the scenes auctions. Its a tough balance to maintain.

Hoping Jeff gets the necessary explanation and reassurance that actions were necessary.

Good luck to all!
 
I am not sure that it can be done easily. But if there was a way to anonymously ask the question that might be a great way for people to get advice on pricing without any way of it being seen as an advert by any other name?

if it is technically “too difficult” to enable anonymous requests for pricing info, could there perhais be a PM address that the request could be sent to, one of the admin team then posting the thread and so hiding the details of who was asking the question?

People replying would also then not be quite as worried about “telling it as it is” because the ID of the person wanting the info is not known?

This suggestion might find its way into the “too hard” pile, but it would be a very useful option.

Many users want to ask these questions but are worried that it might be interpreted as an advert?

Steve B
 
Thread deletion seems overly final - is there not a way to temporarily remove threads pending review to deal with the time issues mentioned and to allow a bit of revision of content to meet the rules? Would take more work but avoid upset.

I do think that people asking about prices and bits available should have read the title of the post but people are people and we are all keen.

No one should be made to feel bad or angry. I think everyone is trying to do their best. The rules appear to be there to stop animosity and ill feeling from developing in a friendly club. It happens that things go awry and crap happens - not your fault; not any one person’s **** goes sideways sometimes.

Ps. Maybe a TDI75 should be your next project car? I’ll miss your posts if you leave!


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Thread deletion seems overly final - is there not a way to temporarily remove threads pending review to deal with the time issues mentioned and to allow a bit of revision of content to meet the rules? Would take more work but avoid upset.
In the interests of being transparent I believe that this is the state in which my thread currently hangs. I use the word delete to describe a thread that has been removed from public view until I make some changes as suggested by the team.

Unfortunately my view is that I have not done anything wrong. I originally stated that my car needs preparing for sale hence why I did not put a price on it. However at the request of the team I did add price details albeit much earlier than I had intended.

The parts that I mentioned are more difficult to price as at this present time I do not know what I would like to sell them for. They are all boxed and are stored inside my house so to take pictures, price and then post is quite a large undertaking and not something that I want to be pressurised into doing straight away. I beleive my request to follow (by this I meant subscribe to) the thread was fair so that if any member wanted to enquire about the parts they would know when I placed them for sale by updating the thread.

I haven't entered into any correspondence with any member who posted on my thread asking about parts (I didn't see any of these posts so am only working on second hand information). Therefore I do not think I can be accused of fishing. Yes I was drawing attention to parts that I have and am planning to sell in the near future but I do not think that constitues any wrong doing. How can I add prices to items that aren't yet for sale? Equally as mentioned above I cannot be held responsible if members go against my wishes and make enquires via the thread before I have added pictures and prices.

Again in the interests of total transparency I have received one PM from a member enquiring about certain parts and I am sure they will vouch for what I am going to say next. I have told the member that all my sales are on hold until the matter is resolved and only then when my requests have or haven't been granted would I consider doing a private sale outside of this forum as a free agent and non-member.

It is important that I clarified a few points with this post as I do not want to portray any aspect of what I have said as being 'X' when in fact it is 'Y'. I think my ongoing conduct and actions speak volumes about the kind of person that I am.
 
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Hi All A2ers

Dear All

A to B A2 owners, A2 Lovers , A2 Potential Buyers , A2 Snobs , A2 Enthusiasts , A2 Dealers , A2 Stealers,
A2 Breakers, A2 Specialists Techies, A2 Fannies, A2 Europeans excluding England.

I have observed over a period of time all is not OEM in the Forum which is normal considering the state of the World in these Times.

You would think the Management of the former British Leyland were involved in the running of this Forum.

We need to get Donald Trumpf to sort thing OOT.
 
I think if you have a lot of parts it can be daunting where to start...

I dunno... even if you posted 10 parts with prices you’d probably get people asking about other parts that you haven’t posted...

If one has loads of parts stored away do you just keep an eye on the wanted section in case a post sparks you’re memory and you go I’ve got 3 of those etc?

Maybe there is a grey area? I dunno...
 
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The club rules state that when advertising a car or parts for sale you must set a price. When you posted in the selling section your were in effect creating a for sale thread. As such you would have needed to set prices for the car and parts in accordance with the club market place rules. If you wish to state prices on your thread then we would willingly help you and reinstate the post into the selling section from the admin section. we can't for the life of us understand why you've got so upset over this...it's just a case of setting prices mate. You don't need any "team decision " declaration over this as it's clearly set out in the club rules. You are not being banned or ostracised for this ...it's only complying with a simple uncomplicated club ruling. Would you please consider setting prices on your thread and we can continue and put this sad episode behind us?.

P.S your thread has not been deleted, its simply unapproved awaiting attention.


Market place rules:
http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthread.php?33301-Marketplace-rules-update
 
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Hi Jeff,

First of all, I'm sorry to hear that you're selling your A2 and moving on. The Lupo is a cool car and I have frequently looked at them with desire, but, in my opinion, they're not in the same league of engineering as the A2. So, whilst I wish you well on your continued journey of automotive ownership, I hope you'll one day return to the fold. I'll miss your presence both at social events and on the forum.

It is an incredible shame that your announcement that you're moving on has stained your perception of the club. That isn't what anybody would have wanted. However, I hope this is just a blip and that it'll soon be water under the bridge.

There are loads of grey areas where matters of selling through the forum are concerned. Others who have posted in this thread before me have highlighted some examples. The entire admin team have debated, on so many occasions, how the marketplace should be run. Loads of different models have been tried over the years. Some of those models required constant moderator action, which just created hassle for a bunch of kind volunteers. Some models worked on a supposedly moderator-free basis, but this invariably resulted in some members being unscrupulous and people then complaining to the moderators and asking them to act like private police. No matter what model is imposed, some compromises exist. The current model, despite its downsides, is the one that seems to work best. I've been a member here for long enough to have seen various marketplace models come and go, and I can honestly say that the current model does seem to create the least amount of administrative work, interpersonal conflict and instances of dishonest behaviour.
I won't be the only person to acknowledge that it's not perfect, but this is a vBulletin site designed for discussion, not a purpose-built site designed for selling stuff. A2OC could simply decide not to allow selling through these pages and push all such matters onto eBay, but the admin team recognise that is not what the membership want. Trading of stuff within this community is an integral part of keeping our aging cars going. As I say, it's a topic that has dominated behind-the-scenes discussion for years and I take exception to the comment that this forum is run by the management of former British Leyland. It's rude and insulting to a group of generous people who volunteer their time to keep A2OC going at no cost to its members.
As mentioned, the current model has its downsides. For instance, just how can you ask the community what something is worth without implying that you have such an item for sale? It can be a troublesome minefield, especially with items that are so exceptionally rare that they've never been seen for sale before. However, it's a simple forum rule that sale threads must come with prices. It might seem a bizarre rule to enforce so stringently, but you only have to go back a few years to find examples of the mess that can be created by three simple words: open to offers.

Jeff, everyone who's met you knows you're a lovely bloke. Nobody here expects you to be unscrupulous in any way. There is no lack of trust in you and you really shouldn't take this incident personally. But the moderators cannot waive the rules just because they've met you and know you to be an eternally well-behaved teddybear. Nobody thinks you're fishing or trying to run a background auction or anything like that, but you posted a thread offering something for sale without a price. It hasn't been deleted but merely hidden from view until prices are ready. I can only echo the comments made already by others; post stuff for sale when you're ready to sell it. Get things cleaned and photographed, decide what you want for it, and then post it online. Nobody puts an advance warning on eBay or in the local classifieds declaring that they'll be selling something in a fortnight.

Chin up. :)

Tom
 
I am fully aware of the rules and would happily fully abide by them IF they were consistently applied.

Caution is needed from me here as this is my battle alone and I do not want to embroil others in it but there are examples where members offer products or services without prices being published and business is being conducted via PM. This is allowed to continue and I have no problem whatsoever with that (I myself have obtained goods and services in this way) but I do have a problem with my treatment when I have fully laid my cards on the table and have not conducted any business in the shadows.

The key word here is consistency. I do not think the rules are being applied in a consistent way and that is something I need to stand up against.

My intention was to let the members know that both my car and stock of parts will soon be available to buy. it was clearly stated that if any member was interested in anything that would be coming to market soon then they should subscribe to the thread. This would allow them to be the first to know when pictures and prices were posted. This is not trying to create a bidding war or seeking to maximise the yield I would receive. From the outset I said that prices would be posted and I stand by that statement.

I have a proven record in the past of selling unwanted parts for exactly the same amount that I paid for them when I could easily have "made a killing" and applied some mark up. I have even on occasion given away parts not needed by me. I am a great believer in what goes around comes around so with that in mind I try to deal with people fairly and expect to be treated the same way in return.

My car and the associated parts ARE NOT FOR SALE at this present time. They WILL BE in the next few weeks and when they are, as stated numerous times, I will be adding up to date pictures and prices. Therefore I would argue that I have not listed anything for sale without setting a price. What I have done is keep members in the loop and drum up interest so that when I do go to market it increases my chances of swift sales. I would call this smart operating rather than deliberately flouting club rules.

If I had said POA or "contact me via PM for prices" or anything of that sort then I would not take issue. However I have said nothing of the sort and reserve the right to take issue.

I am self imposing a deadline to put this to bed. If the stance of "the team" remains the same, even after review, then by the end of Friday I will be closing my account.

Jeff
 
Just an idea here, but would it not be worth a compromise of you creating a thread similar to A2Steve and Sarge's posts along the lines of "J3FVW Parts for Sale"? - Then listing the parts as and when you come up with prices for them.
 
I saw the early parts of the thread. Nothing was offered for sale at that time.

Can it not just be pushed into ‘general’ and revisibled () with an agreement that anyone who asks about parts for sale will be given a ‘not up for discussion’ and asked to look out for new ‘for sale’ threads in due course?

People are warned that items of interest may soon be available. Jeff has set the scene for his future plans and no one is angry or hurt.

Let’s all just be friends.


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I am fully aware of the rules and would happily fully abide by them IF they were consistently applied. ... The key word here is consistency. I do not think the rules are being applied in a consistent way and that is something I need to stand up against.

I know there are grey areas and aspects that are open to interpretation. Take A2Steve as an example. He declares that he is breaking an A2 or has a garage full of parts and doesn't always list prices for everything. However, if he posts a specific part up for sale, it's available there and then and an associated price is published. Of course, I could get in touch with him and ask him for an obscure electrical connector that he'd never consider explicitly advertising. The price I pay is then a private matter between myself and Steve. But the scope for conflict doesn't exist because he's never put the availability of that obscure electrical connector into the public domain.
I, of course, am another example. At the bottom of my posts, there's some red text that gives members just an idea of the things that I can do on A2s. I don't post prices mainly because I'm not selling stuff as much as letting people know of my skills. Despite me advertising "rear electric windows", I don't currently have a rear electric window kit for cars with the Twist interior, or the Platinum interior, or the Swing interior... but if you come by the necessary parts, I've got the knowledge of how to get that kit fitted and working in your car. I can deploy those skills over and over and over again for as many different people as are interested, meaning there's no scope for conflict. Similarly, I've got a ready supply of cruise control kits, meaning there's no limit to the number of members who can have that option added to their A2 and therefore no scope for conflict. I cannot possibly quote a price for this as some members will want to buy and fit a stalk themselves and just have me wire things up. Others will want me to do a complete supply-and-fit. Others will want the old-style stalk changing for the new-style stalk. The permutations are endless and it'd be completely impossible for me to create a price list of my services. But, if I ever list something specific for sale where there is a finite number - an A2, a set of leather seats, a double-DIN dash, etc - you will always see photographs and prices.

I suspect you can see my point; A2OC's rules are there to minimise the risk of interpersonal conflict, not to impose burden and discipline for the sake of it.

If there are other examples of this rule of pricing not being applied consistently, I'm happy to see them pointed out.

My intention was to let the members know that both my car and stock of parts will soon be available to buy. ...
My car and the associated parts ARE NOT FOR SALE at this present time. They WILL BE in the next few weeks and when they are, as stated numerous times, I will be adding up to date pictures and prices.

I think this is possibly the root cause of confusion. Why list something for sale when it's not yet for sale? The "drumming up of interest" that you mention can be equally easily done with the items actually for sale with an associated price.

When I launched the Colour DIS service, I wasn't actually ready to do it. I needed to get some idea of whether it was worth my effort to develop and offer that service. It would be a monumental waste of my time to develop something behind the scenes only to find that everybody thought it was boring and irrelevant. But, crucially, there isn't just one of them! Everyone who wants Colour DIS can have it (albeit there's a queue). In your case, you've only got one A2, and one Bose system, and one set of mudflaps, etc, etc. By "drumming up interest" rather than just posting something for sale with a price, you're opening the possibility for interpersonal conflict. Everybody knows that's not your intention, but it's a possible side effect of the way you're choosing the play things. A2OC have taken a stand against it, and they're within their rights to do so.

I am self imposing a deadline to put this to bed. If the stance of "the team" remains the same, even after review, then by the end of Friday I will be closing my account.

That leaves a group of people, spread across the country, three days in which to remodel the marketplace. Given that these people all give their time voluntarily and have both day jobs and families, this doesn't seem likely. It's taken years to get to this model of marketplace and, whilst it has those aforementioned downsides, 99% of the time it works. Please, Jeff, don't cut off your nose to spite your face and quit the club. Just decide what monetary value you want for your items and post them for sale.

Warm regards,

Tom
 
Just an observation on this Forum which VCDS or OBD11 could not find fault in.

There are one or several Members pedaling their wears / services /parts / and free insight and knowledge of the A2, it has become like the Kraft Magic Circle of Masons for Audi A2s, whist good intentions from Members with past trials and issues with this particular vehicle have been addressed at some point somewhere on this Dinosaur Software Forum Site where more cars have had multiple updates although this site has not.

I personally would like to see items for sale not in the new posts section as it clogs it up , all selling of goods to only located in the Selling section, this will free up stuff most forum members would like to read about and I imagine that is not , SS Intercooler. Multi Functioning A H----,Double Dip Headlights or Bend Over Heads up Display. whilst these items are probably Nice like when I purchased my first 8 Track / Cassette/ Mini Disc Player. Moderators get the ------- oot and get the items/ services for sale where they should BE with prices and whatever is required that meets the Rules ?

A great many people do not trade A2 goods / Services Bona Fida or not on here, but a few do and they appear to Dominate this Forum, if so Moderators have their ads where they should be , I guess conflicts between back street sellers and owners selling their vehicle and surplus parts is a grey area, but I guess it depends on what spectacles are being worn and by whom.
 
I really appreciate you taking the time to make many valid points Tom but I see this as being extremely simple. Rules are being inconsistently applied, for whatever reason, and as a result I do not feel that the action taken in this instance is reasonable when viewed in the greater context of things that have been allowed before on the forum.

Ultimately I am sure that there will remain fundamental differences of opinion over this matter. I have my own views on the way things are sometimes moderated, even though on most occasions I am not directly affected, but as I have never sat in the moderators chair it would be unfair to make those feelings known on a public forum.

All I can say is that this is the straw that breaks the camels back for me. As a man of principle I am not willing to compromise on an issue which I feel so strongly about.

Jeff
 
I really appreciate you taking the time to make many valid points Tom...

You're very welcome. I see both points of view and think it's a shame that friction has come from this, so I'm more than happy to take the time to try my best to sort things out. It does, however, appear that I've been unsuccessful.

All I can say is that this is the straw that breaks the camels back for me. As a man of principle I am not willing to compromise on an issue which I feel so strongly about.

Absolutely fair enough. If I was now in your shoes, I'd post the car and other goodies on eBay and then post a link here on A2OC to those items. That way, everyone can see whose stuff they're buying. Of course, eBay has the advantage that you can sell stuff via auction should you wish, meaning that rare items find their natural value. Selling using the Buy It Now format effectively has identical rules to those applied here on A2OC; you post a description of your item, some photos and a price and it sells to the first person who's willing to commit.

Do let the members here know when you're genuniely ready to sell, as I'm sure there'll be plenty of interest in what you're offering. :)

Cheers,

Tom
 
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