4 wheel alignment
- Thread starter Rich.
- Start date
E
Emm
Guest
Well i will be a bit controversial here,
I don't get 4 wheel alignment. Your back wheels are static and can't move as you don't have camber, toe or castor adjustment. So all you are really doing is aligning the front wheels to the rear. If you then still have to set the toe on the front anyway you will then make them run slightly out of direct alignment from the rear. Does this make sense?
What I don't get is that the rear wheels only follow the front, so no matter what setting the fronts are, as long as the front has correct toe the rears will always follow in alignment, (unless the chassis is twisted). I.e you drive straight down a road, and the rear wheels will follow straight down the road, as its the only thing they can do!
I won't get my Mk1 Golf 4 wheel aligned as in 1976 when it came out i don't believe they had 4 wheel alignment and it doesn't need it now.
Sorry i didn't answer your question, but its a subject i have never fully been convinced about.
I don't get 4 wheel alignment. Your back wheels are static and can't move as you don't have camber, toe or castor adjustment. So all you are really doing is aligning the front wheels to the rear. If you then still have to set the toe on the front anyway you will then make them run slightly out of direct alignment from the rear. Does this make sense?
What I don't get is that the rear wheels only follow the front, so no matter what setting the fronts are, as long as the front has correct toe the rears will always follow in alignment, (unless the chassis is twisted). I.e you drive straight down a road, and the rear wheels will follow straight down the road, as its the only thing they can do!
I won't get my Mk1 Golf 4 wheel aligned as in 1976 when it came out i don't believe they had 4 wheel alignment and it doesn't need it now.
Sorry i didn't answer your question, but its a subject i have never fully been convinced about.
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A different viewpoint -
Its a long time since I had a 2 wheel alignment so things may have changed..My experience of the normal tyre centres was they only ever adjusted the track rod on one side of the car. This gives the correct toe-in but causes the front wheel to run out of true with the backs. On A2's the front camber can only be equalised side to side by centreing the subframe and you can't do this unless the car is raised off the floor. So even if they check it, they probably can't adjust it.
I agree the back wheel geometry is not adjustable but worn bushes or accidental damage would go undetected without a 4 wheel alignment check (think this became popular with the advent of 4 wheel drive cars)
So, in my opinion, 2 wheel alignment only gives half a story. In most cases this may be enough but if you really want to know if anything is amiss then 4 wheel alignment is the way to go
Cheers Spike
Its a long time since I had a 2 wheel alignment so things may have changed..My experience of the normal tyre centres was they only ever adjusted the track rod on one side of the car. This gives the correct toe-in but causes the front wheel to run out of true with the backs. On A2's the front camber can only be equalised side to side by centreing the subframe and you can't do this unless the car is raised off the floor. So even if they check it, they probably can't adjust it.
I agree the back wheel geometry is not adjustable but worn bushes or accidental damage would go undetected without a 4 wheel alignment check (think this became popular with the advent of 4 wheel drive cars)
So, in my opinion, 2 wheel alignment only gives half a story. In most cases this may be enough but if you really want to know if anything is amiss then 4 wheel alignment is the way to go
Cheers Spike
Skipton01
Admin Team
Full wheel alignment is a black art!
Yes, there are lots of figures and measurements and theoretical optimum settings, but in the end, it boils down to experience and skill, something that is lacking in a lot of high street-type garages (Kwik Fit, National Tyres etc).
I've had alignments done at Audi, Nationals Tyres, Stealth and Awesome and 2 places stood out: National Tyres were pathetic - the car came back to me with the steering wheel offset by about 20 degrees!!! Stealth and Audi were both very good.
However, Awesome achieved what no-one else has yet managed to do - to get Tank running with a level wheel, with no pull to the left and with a sharp, responsive feel to the steering, like it was when new.
Whilst I am not saying you must use Awesome, what you must do is be wary of what experience the chosen garage has of the A2 and it's slightly peculiar method of front camber adjustment by moving the subframe. Ultimately, Audi are expensive and pretty good, high street types are cheap and (in my experience) nasty, good independants are usually a better bet.
When you get the car back, have a drive on a straight and level road and if it doesn't feel right, don't be afraid to go back and say so.
Cheers,
Mike
Yes, there are lots of figures and measurements and theoretical optimum settings, but in the end, it boils down to experience and skill, something that is lacking in a lot of high street-type garages (Kwik Fit, National Tyres etc).
I've had alignments done at Audi, Nationals Tyres, Stealth and Awesome and 2 places stood out: National Tyres were pathetic - the car came back to me with the steering wheel offset by about 20 degrees!!! Stealth and Audi were both very good.
However, Awesome achieved what no-one else has yet managed to do - to get Tank running with a level wheel, with no pull to the left and with a sharp, responsive feel to the steering, like it was when new.
Whilst I am not saying you must use Awesome, what you must do is be wary of what experience the chosen garage has of the A2 and it's slightly peculiar method of front camber adjustment by moving the subframe. Ultimately, Audi are expensive and pretty good, high street types are cheap and (in my experience) nasty, good independants are usually a better bet.
When you get the car back, have a drive on a straight and level road and if it doesn't feel right, don't be afraid to go back and say so.
Cheers,
Mike
driveforward
Member
Richard, I never go for anything but 4 wheel alignment - why? - Exactly as Spike says, you have 4 wheels on your car, what's the point in only checking 2 of them?
I can thoroughly recommend http://www.chemix-autocentres.co.uk/ as they have the latest kit and are comprehensive in their detail.
They have 3 branches in the West Mids
I can thoroughly recommend http://www.chemix-autocentres.co.uk/ as they have the latest kit and are comprehensive in their detail.
They have 3 branches in the West Mids
wooly A2
Member
I Had a 4 wheel alignment done after i had the springs changed
i used an Independant garage in Swindon which are well known
for there excellent work .....
They are the only garage in Swindon to offer this service it cost me
just under a £100 when i went to pick the car up they said the alignment
was near enough perfect anyway and hardly had to adjust it at all ,
i was a little sceptical at there report ,i drove the car away and was amazed at
the difference it made , the steering just felt so light ....
In My Eyes Money Well Spent ...
i used an Independant garage in Swindon which are well known
for there excellent work .....
They are the only garage in Swindon to offer this service it cost me
just under a £100 when i went to pick the car up they said the alignment
was near enough perfect anyway and hardly had to adjust it at all ,
i was a little sceptical at there report ,i drove the car away and was amazed at
the difference it made , the steering just felt so light ....
In My Eyes Money Well Spent ...
E
Emm
Guest
Er.. because the other 2 wheels do nothing at all!
The idea that adjusting the tie rod on one side is incorrect, is not the complete story. It works in the same way as adjusting both equally, the only difference is one will keep the steering wheel straight (by even adjustments of the rod) and one won't, but the result is the same in terms of toe angle
Take a road without camber (Runway strip). And drive an A2 with the correct toe (set with 2 wheels alignment) along it, the car will drive straight and the rear wheels will follow exactly in line, because where ever the front wheels go the rears will follow.
Then spend 100 pounds to get 4 wheel alignment. The toe is the same as this is measured on the front wheels only, again the rear wheels have to follow, as they can't do anything else. So is the money worth it or is it the technical competance of the garage?
Also your steering wheel can be at a 90 degree angle but the tracking still be right, as the steering angle is completely irrelevant to the toe. pulling to the left or right is another story but steering angle isn't, unless you are using angle to maintian a straight line, then you tracking is out, but if you car drives straight and the wheels is slightly off is doesnt effect handling, tyres toe or anything.
Sorry to quote this Spike, but i think its incorrect IMO, your front wheels can't run out of true with the back. Unless you are turning!! otherwise you are driving straight. If you think about it and you have your front slightly turned left (for example) out of alignment from the rear.. You are turning, thats it. If your toe is correct and you are running in a straight line , the rears (as they are only pointing straight) will follow in direct alignment.
Anyway i will save my money, and im sure the garages will take a lot of money from others
lol
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John H
Member
I seem to recall Skipton saying in another thread that full alignment on an A2 involved moving the rear axle and front subframes about!
To my mind, that is not wheel alignment, that is chassis alignment, a very different thing. Hardly surprising that Kwik Fit et al can't deal with this.
Most modern cars have precious little facility for alignment, other than the steering tie arms which control toe in/out. One of the few exceptions to this is Porsche, whose cars have eccentric adjusters to allow you to alter camber, castor and other dimensions.
JH
To my mind, that is not wheel alignment, that is chassis alignment, a very different thing. Hardly surprising that Kwik Fit et al can't deal with this.
Most modern cars have precious little facility for alignment, other than the steering tie arms which control toe in/out. One of the few exceptions to this is Porsche, whose cars have eccentric adjusters to allow you to alter camber, castor and other dimensions.
JH
E
Emm
Guest
Ha ha, yeah a mini is different but then we aren't talking about 1960s BL cars lol... Thankfully
Bush wear and always having different camber angles on either side at the rear of old minis is a problem apparently causing the crabbing. And people moan about losing british manufacturing...
Bush wear and always having different camber angles on either side at the rear of old minis is a problem apparently causing the crabbing. And people moan about losing british manufacturing...
james.farrow
Member
My 2 pence worth. After having new tyres kwik fit adjusted my tracking and the car was absolutely terrible to drive. I eventually ended up taking it to Teesside Audi. The change in the car was nothing short of amazing. although it was £140 it was worth it IMHO.
driveforward
Member
With a 4 wheel alignment, even if there is no adjustment at the rear, modern systems allow the operator to adjust the front setup to help compensate for any such issues where possible.
If you're going do a job, do it properly.
If you're going do a job, do it properly.
E
Emm
Guest
You want the operator to compensate for possible bush wear or accident damage, by what? By adjusting the tie rods on the front suspension to the correct toe angle, in stead of correcting the fault, i don't call that doing a job properly...
Driveforward is correct.
Forgetting about damaged or worn parts, due to production tolerances its almost certain the rear wheels will not be 'square' to the centreline of the car. This slight misalignment or angular offset (known as the thrust angle) causes a rear wheel steer effect and this can be compensated for by aligning the front wheels to follow the same thrust angle while maintaining the correct toe-in setting.
With 'front wheel only' alignment, the toe-in can be set fairly accurately but matching the thrust angle is impossible. The attached link shows the set up for cars with and without non adjustable rear suspension. The diagrams are rather exagerated cos it looks like you would be looking through the side window while going straight ahead.
Anyone who decides its worth the extra for a propper job, as Skipton said in a previous mail, its important to find a workshop who are expert both on A2's and operating the alignment gear.
http://www.pro-align.co.uk/amc/wheelalignment.htm
Cheers Spike
Forgetting about damaged or worn parts, due to production tolerances its almost certain the rear wheels will not be 'square' to the centreline of the car. This slight misalignment or angular offset (known as the thrust angle) causes a rear wheel steer effect and this can be compensated for by aligning the front wheels to follow the same thrust angle while maintaining the correct toe-in setting.
With 'front wheel only' alignment, the toe-in can be set fairly accurately but matching the thrust angle is impossible. The attached link shows the set up for cars with and without non adjustable rear suspension. The diagrams are rather exagerated cos it looks like you would be looking through the side window while going straight ahead.
Anyone who decides its worth the extra for a propper job, as Skipton said in a previous mail, its important to find a workshop who are expert both on A2's and operating the alignment gear.
http://www.pro-align.co.uk/amc/wheelalignment.htm
Cheers Spike
E
Emm
Guest
A debate is always good
I like the link, its always good to see a link to 4 wheel alignment endorsment, from a company that does or provides contacts for 4 wheel alignment
I like fig 3 section 2: "Rear wheels are set to specification. (Rear thrust line corresponds to vehicle centerline.)" How exactly did they set them?
After looking at the angle of the rear wheels in fig 2, then they some how point straight in fig 3. Cool!!
But anyway some will want to spend the money and believe they get good value, and some (or one lol) will believe that its a waste of time for every day tracking of cars...
Just to clarify if you spend money on 4 wheel alignment and they adjust the front tie rods, you aren't getting 4 wheel alignment, thats a basic simple fact, you are getting 2 wheel alignment and paying up to, and over £100 for that privilage.
"This slight misalignment or angular offset (known as the thrust angle) causes a rear wheel steer effect and this can be compensated for by aligning the front wheels to follow the same thrust angle while maintaining the correct toe-in setting." This section by spike is incorrect to point of being plain wrong.
If your rear wheels are pointing 0.5 degrees or 5 degrees to the left adjusting the front track rods to the left, right or centre doesn't stop anything. Sorry but some people simply don't understand how this works or what they are paying for.
4 Wheel check is more appropriate, but its not and can't be 4 wheel alignment as they don't aligned to the rear wheels, due to the nature of front alignment. If you car has rear wheels pointing at odd angles then you need alignment and a full build on the rear, but this alteration is never achieved by adjusting the front tie rods. Its a case of you either need it or not, but what the garages say and make you pay for is crazy...
I like the link, its always good to see a link to 4 wheel alignment endorsment, from a company that does or provides contacts for 4 wheel alignment
I like fig 3 section 2: "Rear wheels are set to specification. (Rear thrust line corresponds to vehicle centerline.)" How exactly did they set them?
After looking at the angle of the rear wheels in fig 2, then they some how point straight in fig 3. Cool!!
But anyway some will want to spend the money and believe they get good value, and some (or one
lol) will believe that its a waste of time for every day tracking of cars...Just to clarify if you spend money on 4 wheel alignment and they adjust the front tie rods, you aren't getting 4 wheel alignment, thats a basic simple fact, you are getting 2 wheel alignment and paying up to, and over £100 for that privilage.
"This slight misalignment or angular offset (known as the thrust angle) causes a rear wheel steer effect and this can be compensated for by aligning the front wheels to follow the same thrust angle while maintaining the correct toe-in setting." This section by spike is incorrect to point of being plain wrong.
If your rear wheels are pointing 0.5 degrees or 5 degrees to the left adjusting the front track rods to the left, right or centre doesn't stop anything. Sorry but some people simply don't understand how this works or what they are paying for.
4 Wheel check is more appropriate, but its not and can't be 4 wheel alignment as they don't aligned to the rear wheels, due to the nature of front alignment. If you car has rear wheels pointing at odd angles then you need alignment and a full build on the rear, but this alteration is never achieved by adjusting the front tie rods. Its a case of you either need it or not, but what the garages say and make you pay for is crazy...
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