Coolant loss mystery

[Pilchard]

My 1.4 diesel is losing coolant somehow.

It was serviced and topped up 11 days and 110 miles ago. Following the warning alarm today it took 0.85 litres to bring it to the max line.
The same happened 2000 before the service, and again just before the service, so I asked the garage to check. He had it on a pressure test while he did the service and he reported no pressure loss.
A bit of a mystery.

The temp-gauge is very lazy and never moves from its 60 degree start point unless on a long run... and then never hits the middle point where you'd expect it to be. There could be a connection... but maybe not. Either way... the lazy gauge is another mystery I've had in mind to look into.

There is no engine-bay staining visible from just casual inspection and, fortunately, there is no sign of oil contamination.

I did notice a little windscreen misting the other day, but assumed it was condensation from the water ingress I've been getting in the rear battery/underfloor area from the (I presume) vents behind the bumper.
Water-pump was done along with the cam-belt early last year.

So... can anyone advise on classic or well-known coolant loss locations?

 

[ashley7715]

Morning sorry it was the head gasket personally I think it's a weak link on the AMF engines but pleased you managed to conclusivly determine the fault. It's worth researching the thickness of headgaskets available as I would go for a slightly thicker one. I haven't seen an issue with the BHC engines and wonder if they use a thicker gasket. I've had 2 AMF tdi's and both needed head gasket's after pressure testing fine. A tell tail sign is water squirting out of the water filler tank pressure valve under load. Another I had was the heating not being consistently hot even when the engine was hot or on a trip up long hills etc but that's harder to determine. Good luck with the repairs.

 

[Rusty911]

Pretty conclusive I reckon.
This was also the first time I ran it with the cap off. Had I done so before, I might have guessed that the little stream of froth/bubbles running down the inside of the expansion tank from the upper tank hose (what I can only assume is a breather) strongly indicates leaky head gasket causing exhaust gases to enter cooling system.

As this certainly isn't a job for me, I now need to find a garage. Although I have no reason to doubt competence of the local garage I've only just started using, I think on balance I'd be better off with an A2 or Audi or VAG specialist.

Balls...balls... balls... balls... balls!

Oh commiserations: what a pain. Very best wishes with getting it sorted, particularly as you're obviously well committed to the car now. It will be worth sticking with though I'm sure.

There are few other cars out there with the breadth of talent as an A2 in 75bhp diesel form. Once sorted, miniscule running costs in an iconic, quality, fun and practical package that enjoys reverse-depreciation as well.

You could easily spend, say, £2500 on something ordinary and within two years you might have still spent several hundred on it and it also have dropped to £1200 as well.

As you allude to, key now is to find someone reputable that has done this job before, even if the initial quote is a little more. Not the time to be paying someone to learn how to do the job on your car.

Good luck!

 

[Pilchard]

Oh commiserations: what a pain. Very best wishes with getting it sorted, particularly as you're obviously well committed to the car now. It will be worth sticking with though I'm sure.

There are few other cars out there with the breadth of talent as an A2 in 75bhp diesel form. Once sorted, miniscule running costs in an iconic, quality, fun and practical package that enjoys reverse-depreciation as well.

You could easily spend, say, £2500 on something ordinary and within two years you might have still spent several hundred on it and it also have dropped to £1200 as well.

As you allude to, key now is to find someone reputable that has done this job before, even if the initial quote is a little more. Not the time to be paying someone to learn how to do the job on your car.

Good luck!

The car has been left on the back burner for now, as our sights are currently set on getting ready for our impending Scottish NC 500 trip in our motorhome/camper, but I was going to add more to this thread when time allowed.

I discussed the A2 with the garage I recently started using, who I'm assured by the local mini-cab guys is one of the better garages in my area (the rest being a complete useless shower), and he reckons it could even be a cracked head. His rationale being that to do a gasket and not send the head off for testing is asking for trouble. His actual advice was to scrap the car.
I don't know what other forum members think of the likelihood of a cracked head, but without my knowing of any misuse... running dry/overheating etc... prior to my ownership, I couldn't offer any clues other than to say that the coolant issue is a reasonably recent thing and the only long and fast trip I've done in it is a 140 mile trip to Leeds and back, each leg being broken in half by a brew and a leak at services and the car behaving itself immaculately. In fact, the Covid year of 2020 has meant it has been little more than a shopping trolley.

So... what is the real likelihood of head damage?
I've read that these short 3 pot heads are quite robust and not prone to warping, but have read nothing regarding cracks.

I really don't know at the moment what I'll do.
I could scrap it with the old wheels tyres and battery, keeping or selling the brand new all weather tyre/wheels and battery.
I could get gasket done and ignore advice re potential cracked head, but haven't a clue re cost.
A second hand engine/gearbox is another option I suppose.
But... a 19-year-old basic model car, with 170k on the clock and expected age related cabin wear, one still stuck rear seat, classic water ingress at rear, top near-side front suspension bearing needing doing as it goes "boing". No early signs of anything major like clutch, turbo, ECU etc but.... at this age and miles, who knows. But at least it's the best colour... that classic pale Audi silver.
You learn over the years to be unemotional about cars.... because they will always let you down and reduce you to penury if you let them. But this is my first A2, and I now rather like them. There's a sensible voice inside me that is saying no no NO... but I suspect I'd have another

What would YOU guys do?

 

[kp 115]

The car has been left on the back burner for now, as our sights are currently set on getting ready for our impending Scottish NC 500 trip in our motorhome/camper, but I was going to add more to this thread when time allowed.

I discussed the A2 with the garage I recently started using, who I'm assured by the local mini-cab guys is one of the better garages in my area (the rest being a complete useless shower), and he reckons it could even be a cracked head. His rationale being that to do a gasket and not send the head off for testing is asking for trouble. His actual advice was to scrap the car.
I don't know what other forum members think of the likelihood of a cracked head, but without my knowing of any misuse... running dry/overheating etc... prior to my ownership, I couldn't offer any clues other than to say that the coolant issue is a reasonably recent thing and the only long and fast trip I've done in it is a 140 mile trip to Leeds and back, each leg being broken in half by a brew and a leak at services and the car behaving itself immaculately. In fact, the Covid year of 2020 has meant it has been little more than a shopping trolley.

So... what is the real likelihood of head damage?
I've read that these short 3 pot heads are quite robust and not prone to warping, but have read nothing regarding cracks.

I really don't know at the moment what I'll do.
I could scrap it with the old wheels tyres and battery, keeping or selling the brand new all weather tyre/wheels and battery.
I could get gasket done and ignore advice re potential cracked head, but haven't a clue re cost.
A second hand engine/gearbox is another option I suppose.
But... a 19-year-old basic model car, with 170k on the clock and expected age related cabin wear, one still stuck rear seat, classic water ingress at rear, top near-side front suspension bearing needing doing as it goes "boing". No early signs of anything major like clutch, turbo, ECU etc but.... at this age and miles, who knows. But at least it's the best colour... that classic pale Audi silver.
You learn over the years to be unemotional about cars.... because they will always let you down and reduce you to penury if you let them. But this is my first A2, and I now rather like them. There's a sensible voice inside me that is saying no no NO... but I suspect I'd have another

What would YOU guys do?

My money would be on the gasket being the culprit as the heads are really strong , I did mine at 197,000 miles when I stripped 32 teeth off the cambelt.
so I stripped it & replaced the valve seals & lapped in the valves after checking for straightness etc,
Still running at 254,000 miles @ 900 miles a week they are engineered to last .
Hope that helps.
Keith.

 

[Pilchard]

My money would be on the gasket being the culprit as the heads are really strong , I did mine at 197,000 miles when I stripped 32 teeth off the cambelt.
so I stripped it & replaced the valve seals & lapped in the valves after checking for straightness etc,
Still running at 254,000 miles @ 900 miles a week they are engineered to last .
Hope that helps.
Keith.

That's reassuring Keith, and I suspect that might be the common advice re these heads.
Fancy doing mine? I'll bring the beers and pizzas.

 

[Mka306]

Keep at it, it will no doubt serve you well in the future. If you do decide not to keep it I'd say strip it for parts as other members will no doubt be able to use a lot of them and recoup most of your money if not all and then get another in the SE spec and enjoy the little gem these cars are.

 

[ashley7715]

Very much doubt a cracked head. I don't think you are ment to skim the heads (needs confirming I'm sure I read that somewhere?) if it does it's injectors out which is a bit more cost. If it was me I'd just get the gasket replaced assuming cambelt and water pump recently done. Definatley look at what gasket thickness are available. I did have a picture of mine when it leaked but can't find it in my very disorganised photos. I'll try searching again as I'll bet it's the same place it's leaking. Good luck.

 

[Guest 4123]

I discussed the A2 with the garage I recently started using, who I'm assured by the local mini-cab guys is one of the better garages in my area (the rest being a complete useless shower), and he reckons it could even be a cracked head.

Does the garage owner think that the head is cast iron? If he does, take the car somewhere else!

Blown head gaskets might have been a problem known to Audi. Between Elsawin 3.3 and Elsawin 6.0, there was a change in the procedure for tightening down the heads.

RAB

 

[Pilchard]

Very much doubt a cracked head. I don't think you are ment to skim the heads (needs confirming I'm sure I read that somewhere?) if it does it's injectors out which is a bit more cost. If it was me I'd just get the gasket replaced assuming cambelt and water pump recently done. Definatley look at what gasket thickness are available. I did have a picture of mine when it leaked but can't find it in my very disorganised photos. I'll try searching again as I'll bet it's the same place it's leaking. Good luck.

A photo would be nice if you can find it. It probably wouldn't get me any further on, but still interesting.

 

[Pilchard]

Does the garage owner think that the head is cast iron? If he does, take the car somewhere else!

Blown head gaskets might have been a problem known to Audi. Between Elsawin 3.3 and Elsawin 6.0, there was a change in the procedure for tightening down the heads.

RAB

As these cars are pretty rare, I figure most garages have no idea what engines are in them and what the heads are made from. But, if I did get the job done, I'd get it done by someone with a degree of specialisation or knowledge of the A2. I did in fact email an a2oc forum member recommended (but not advertized as Audi specialist) garage near Penrith a few days back. No reply yet.

The garage I've recently started using, who mentioned he normally gets heads tested, did mention something else... a magic bullet trick.
You can laugh if you want, but not at me. I'm just repeating the story and wondering what you guys think.
He related a story of how a few years back a woman came to him with a Vauxhall Corsa prob... cracked head or blown gasket. She went out and bought some Steel Seal and asked him to put it in for her. He reckoned it fixed it and she was still driving it a year or two later, and it might still be going for all he knew.
I asked him if he'd be confident bombing it down a motorway and he said "possibly not, but if it gives you a couple more years local use......"
I read the instructions for this.... drowning man clutching at straws... and the specific process for a diesel sounds a real ball-ache, and even worse for a 3 cylinder diesel.
Anyway... I've put that one out there. Laugh all you wan't

 

[Rusty911]

As these cars are pretty rare, I figure most garages have no idea what engines are in them and what the heads are made from. But, if I did get the job done, I'd get it done by someone with a degree of specialisation or knowledge of the A2. I did in fact email an a2oc forum member recommended (but not advertized as Audi specialist) garage near Penrith a few days back. No reply yet.

The garage I've recently started using, who mentioned he normally gets heads tested, did mention something else... a magic bullet trick.
You can laugh if you want, but not at me. I'm just repeating the story and wondering what you guys think.
He related a story of how a few years back a woman came to him with a Vauxhall Corsa prob... cracked head or blown gasket. She went out and bought some Steel Seal and asked him to put it in for her. He reckoned it fixed it and she was still driving it a year or two later, and it might still be going for all he knew.
I asked him if he'd be confident bombing it down a motorway and he said "possibly not, but if it gives you a couple more years local use......"
I read the instructions for this.... drowning man clutching at straws... and the specific process for a diesel sounds a real ball-ache, and even worse for a 3 cylinder diesel.
Anyway... I've put that one out there. Laugh all you wan't

Would you believe Subaru had a problem with weeping headgaskets on their pre-2003 2.5 petrol. As they were within warranty period the UK importers wanted to minimise their exposure so specified a 'coolant additives to deal with the issue. By all accounts, in the main, it did.

Me? I guess if the car was near end of life anyway and it was a shot to nothing before it got broken for bits, yeah, why not. Anything else: no, it'll probably screw with heating / cooling system and compromise future repairs. I get the dilemma though, so in this context not a silly proposition at all.

 

[Guest 4123]

As these cars are pretty rare, I figure most garages have no idea what engines are in them and what the heads are made from. But, if I did get the job done, I'd get it done by someone with a degree of specialisation or knowledge of the A2. I did in fact email an a2oc forum member recommended (but not advertized as Audi specialist) garage near Penrith a few days back. No reply yet.

The garage I've recently started using, who mentioned he normally gets heads tested, did mention something else... a magic bullet trick.
You can laugh if you want, but not at me. I'm just repeating the story and wondering what you guys think.
He related a story of how a few years back a woman came to him with a Vauxhall Corsa prob... cracked head or blown gasket. She went out and bought some Steel Seal and asked him to put it in for her. He reckoned it fixed it and she was still driving it a year or two later, and it might still be going for all he knew.
I asked him if he'd be confident bombing it down a motorway and he said "possibly not, but if it gives you a couple more years local use......"
I read the instructions for this.... drowning man clutching at straws... and the specific process for a diesel sounds a real ball-ache, and even worse for a 3 cylinder diesel.
Anyway... I've put that one out there. Laugh all you wan't

I presume that you will drive the car to anywhere that will repair it? If not I'd take it to WOM. If you have breakdown cover, you could attempt to drive to WOM; if it breaks down............ Looks as if there are also a few suitable VW group garages in Penrith.

RAB

 

[Pilchard]

Would you believe Subaru had a problem with weeping headgaskets on their pre-2003 2.5 petrol. As they were within warranty period the UK importers wanted to minimise their exposure so specified a 'coolant additives to deal with the issue. By all accounts, in the main, it did.

Me? I guess if the car was near end of life anyway and it was a shot to nothing before it got broken for bits, yeah, why not. Anything else: no, it'll probably screw with heating / cooling system and compromise future repairs. I get the dilemma though, so in this context not a silly proposition at all.

Interesting!
I thought I'd get castigated for even mentioning this kind of "flaky" fix, but pragmatism seems to be abundant here.
Any idea which additive the Subaru UK importers decided on, and If it'd be suitable for the A2 diesel?

It seems that the Steel Seal is some kind of resin that slowly sets hard on contact with hot surfaces.
You drain and flush out coolant... re-fill with Steel Seal mix... run engine as per instructions... leave to cool overnight... drain and flush... re-fill with coolant.

Obviously, if coolant is being forced into oil-ways via a leaky gasket, then it's possible to see how that could work... like K-Seal sealing pin-pricks in rads.
Harder to see how the relatively low pressure within a cooling system is going to force this sealant into a gap that exhaust gases are blasting through from a 18.5 compression ratio chamber.
Steel Seal's trick to offset this is to identify which cylinder the leak is coming from by removing spark-plugs or injectors one at a time until bubbling into expansion tank stops when the engine is fired up again, then running the engine with the Steel Seal in it. On a four cylinder engine this of course will result in pretty lumpy running, but I imagine that one cylinder down on a 3 cylinder diesel will have the thing trying to leap out of the engine bay. Sounds bloody frightening to me!

 

[Rusty911]

Interesting!
I thought I'd get castigated for even mentioning this kind of "flaky" fix, but pragmatism seems to be abundant here.
Any idea which additive the Subaru UK importers decided on, and If it'd be suitable for the A2 diesel?

It seems that the Steel Seal is some kind of resin that slowly sets hard on contact with hot surfaces.
You drain and flush out coolant... re-fill with Steel Seal mix... run engine as per instructions... leave to cool overnight... drain and flush... re-fill with coolant.

Obviously, if coolant is being forced into oil-ways via a leaky gasket, then it's possible to see how that could work... like K-Seal sealing pin-pricks in rads.
Harder to see how the relatively low pressure within a cooling system is going to force this sealant into a gap that exhaust gases are blasting through from a 18.5 compression ratio chamber.
Steel Seal's trick to offset this is to identify which cylinder the leak is coming from by removing spark-plugs or injectors one at a time until bubbling into expansion tank stops when the engine is fired up again, then running the engine with the Steel Seal in it. On a four cylinder engine this of course will result in pretty lumpy running, but I imagine that one cylinder down on a 3 cylinder diesel will have the thing trying to leap out of the engine bay. Sounds bloody frightening to me!

No, I don't know and I guess the game has moved on since then anyway.

I had the same thought as you: effectively you're trying to plug a leak from the wrong side. Let's face it, we all know the head 'should' be coming off, but if that writes the car off anyway, well this makes for an interesting experiment. Frankly if the car's mainly used in low stress situations and you keep an eye on everything (whilst you save up for another gasket / engine / car) you might find this is one of those things that just keeps going and going. The sort of thing a sympathetic driver can ease along for years, lends it to someone who promptly kills it in 200 yards.

 

[spike]

If the car has a Webasto heater Audi don't recommend using Radweld type products. Just something to be aware of

Cheers Spike

 

[Birchall]

Completely unhelpful, but can I just say it's refreshing (without taking pleasure in the mechanical maladies suffered by others) to see a coolant loss thread that doesn't contain the letters F, S, and I.

For Sure I agree. ?

 

[Rusty911]

If the car has a Webasto heater Audi don't recommend using Radweld type products. Just something to be aware of

Cheers Spike

I'm pretty sure Audi would be unimpressed with the whole concept, but if hypothetically we're talking of breaking / scrapping a car as the alternative, then such niceties become moot. E.g. scrap car now, or possibly risk issues with Webasto at some time in the future.

My last Panda 100hp (excellent little cars) had what appeared to be copper dust in the cooling which I imagine was a rad / headgasket product of some sort. That had clumped in the bottom of the rad and expansion tank and after running the car for a month or two the headgasket did fail. What I don't know is whether the gasket had actually failed weeks / months / years ago and the product had kept the car on the road or whether it had been added 5 mins before I bought the car for a pinhole in the rad and then killed the headgasket. Alloy head, BTW, was perfectly flat and cracked free.

Ultimately adding something like this is likely to cause harm in the longer term via blocked passages. Clearly the best (and only true engineering) option is to get the head off, but the OP is right, you can quickly get into a classic creeper situation: garage strips out a thread or two, will only guarantee repair if head's tested. Head then needs stripping out, so now need full gasket set. Engineering firm then recommend a skim. Garage wants to put new belts on, plus oil, plus coolant etc etc. Before you know it, you're into it by £400-750+ all on a car that then still has other issues on the horizon.

I feel very strongly that here there is a tendancy to recommend absolute best practise. This is great and right, but can simply write off some of these cars off and hasten their trip to the breakers. This crops up a lot on issues of suspension: a huge shopping list of almost every moving part. This is great if you have a nice example of the right pedigree that you've had / will keep long term and it's the only job you're doing.

A lot of these cars just aren't like that: they're new to an owner as a bit of a semi-project / fun daily driver but nothing that special, just like my latest tdi. Wrong miles, huge list of issues, most done but more to do, interiors 'O.K' but hum ho Softtouch, one fag burn. I don't mind throwing a few hundred at it plus a few weekends and evenings. There's no way it would be viable if I was to send it to a garage for a large repair. It'd get broken or weighed in, just as the previous owner was going to do.

Therefore I feel context is everything. My day job involves reasonably expensive cars (my modest claim to fame is repairing the boot floor on the Peter Sellers 275 GTB, insured at £17m at the time), yet my hobby is rescuing scrap dodgers / projects of a few hundred. Therefore I see both ends of the spectrum. Sometimes you've got to hold your nose and just be pragmatic.

 

[Rusty911]

Does the garage owner think that the head is cast iron? If he does, take the car somewhere else!

Blown head gaskets might have been a problem known to Audi. Between Elsawin 3.3 and Elsawin 6.0, there was a change in the procedure for tightening down the heads.

RAB

Why might he think that? Cracked alloy heads are common. The garage owner said exactly the right things: if you're doing the job and paying the labour anyway, you might as well get the head tested (as otherwise we can't guarantee the repair). At the same time the engineering co would test it for flatness.

I think the garage sounds very responsible: he's basically saying, look, this could get quite involved, it might be better to call it a day before committing to the car further.

Even as a DIY'er I'm always amazed how these things can run away in cost. Start adding in new studs, nuts, washers, seals, external services, fluids, the odd sheared stud, work uncovering new work (e.g. whilst off we noticed play in the turbo / stripped engine mount thread / exhaust mount). Generally the whole principle of disturbing an old car and it running away from you. DIY at one cup of tea and a biscuit per hour is one thing, but £40, 50, 60 an hour? That gets painful.

If the headgasket went on Cobalt II I'd do it: it's a known quantity car that owes me north of £2k now and is really crisp in all regards. The silver TDi? No way, I'd chuck something in it, use it locally until it died and sell it as a breaker.

 

[Guest 4123]

Why might he think that? Cracked alloy heads are common. The garage owner said exactly the right things: if you're doing the job and paying the labour anyway, you might as well get the head tested (as otherwise we can't guarantee the repair). At the same time the engineering co would test it for flatness.

A cracked head would suggest a cast iron head, which means that the garage owner is not familiar with the car.

As these cars are pretty rare, I figure most garages have no idea what engines are in them and what the heads are made from. But, if I did get the job done, I'd get it done by someone with a degree of specialisation or knowledge of the A2. I did in fact email an a2oc forum member recommended (but not advertized as Audi specialist) garage near Penrith a few days back. No reply yet.

RAB

 

[Rusty911]

A cracked head would suggest a cast iron head, which means that the garage owner is not familiar with the car.

RAB

Respectfully, alloy heads are just as likely to crack. Now, I'd suggest petrol engined cars are more prone to diesels in this regard as they tend to be lighter in build and, especially, hotter. Can't think of many modern cars with cast iron heads actually although interested to hear otherwise.

Anyway, my point is to defend the local garage who probably gave some quick advice as to what might be involved. They did the right thing, pointed out some potential issues and very honestly I think, said the car might not be worth doing. I can't see they could be any fairer. That's not to say they may or may not be the best people for this particular job, but so far, top marks I'd say.