BBZ intake with Renault throttle to BBY engine chokes

dice111

dice111

New Member
Hi guys,
I have done swap per below:

Intake 036129711FD from BBZ engine (new)
Renault Throttle body 408238827002 (new)
EGR intake pipe 036131521BF from BBZ engine (used, but cleaned)
Black silicon hoose (new)

Did Throttle body and EGR adapation via VCDS. when started engine, it sounds like run on two cylinder, no power, chokes on idle rpm and below erros in ecu module:
17961 - Barometric / Manifold Pressure Signals
P1553 - 35-00 - Implausible correlation

When I unplugged EGR plug engine runs correctly, but of course have EGR errors and check engine.
Map sensor (Barometric / Manifold Pressure Signals) tested fine and even replaced for spare new one.
when unplugged its plug - same issue, engine chokes, tested with plugged and unplugged EGR.
Tested EGR via VCDS - runs ok, voltage ok, open, closed fine per VCDS test fine
replaced EGR - same issue.
I plugged the hole behind the EGR valve - same issue, last thing to test, plug hole before EGR valve
Adaptation done couple times, no errors fine.

Some Polish guy in fabia had same issue with EGR, unplugged works fine, plugged chokes etc, and after switch to basics settings and do ONLY throttle adaptation without EGR adaptation it worked fine.

My engine runs smoothly only with unplugged EGR, no option to login to ECU by 12233 login, so how can I do switch to basics settings ? or how to close egr to 80 % via VCDS if ECU doesnt take login ? Any other working login for Magneti Marelli ECU in BBY ?

Cheers
 
12233 is for the Bosch ECU on the Tdi isn't it?

As for the rest of the details - as this is a bit of a bolt-on tuning modifications question on the 1.4i I don't know many folk who will have a useful reply to your technical issues when it's not running right with these non-original parts on it.

@celsisone ?

@a-zwo probably knows more about the Magnetti Marelli ECU than most.
 
Hi,

I am not mechanic this could be load of cods-wollop...

The upgrades you mention should allow an extra volume of air into the engine.
The map ECU will be confused by the increased volume (lower pressure readings?) from the MAP sensor.

The suck squeeze bang blow from the pistion as air is being drawn in on each downstroke will not have altered.

I guess it is something to do with the volume of air contained inside the intake manifold and passing through the over sized butterfly valve.

I think you car needs to be mapped to make it work.

Google
    • Air-fuel ratio
      The stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (SAFR) is the amount of air needed to completely combust a given amount of fuel.
    • For example, pure gasoline has an ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1.

The larger diameter EGR pipe will also confuse the ECU because of the unexpected MAP sensor readings compared to those it holds within the engine map used to run a non modified car.

The Polos.Net forom had some info on this sort of upgrade.
🙂👍

Good luck with your project
 
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rotifer II said:
Hi,

I am not mechanic this could be load of cods-wollop...

The upgrades you mention should allow an extra volume of air into the engine.
The map ECU will be confused by the increased volume (lower pressure readings?) from the MAP sensor.

The suck squeeze bang blow from the pistion as air is being drawn in on each downstroke will not have altered.

I guess it is something to do with the volume of air contained inside the intake manifold and passing through the over sized butterfly valve.

I think you car needs to be mapped to make it work.

Google
    • Air-fuel ratio
      The stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (SAFR) is the amount of air needed to completely combust a given amount of fuel.
    • For example, pure gasoline has an ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1.

The larger diameter EGR pipe will also confuse the ECU because of the unexpected MAP sensor readings compared to those it holds within the engine map used to run a non modified car.

The Polos.Net forom had some info on this sort of upgrade.
🙂👍

Good luck with your project
Click to expand...
Not codswallop at all.
Mac.
 
Thank you guys for your reply, Danne made it in the past, wrote him private message too but not sure if he is still on this board
DanneB

Post in thread 'Audi A2 from Sweden'

Here come some updates what I've been doing on my Audi A2 lately.
I have changed following parts on my BBY engine.
Intake and EGR pipe from an BBZ engine and a Renault throttle body.

Parts
Intake 036129711FD
Renault Throttle body 408238827002
EGR intake pipe 036131521BF
Black silicon hoose 2,5 inch length 67 mm


It works very good and I will remap the ecu this spring.
And it looks original in the engine compartment.

2021-02-10-15-18-14.jpg


2021-02-10-15-20-02.jpg
  • Like

EGR pipe is the same BBZ and BBY have only difference in the mounting to intake maintfold (the diameter and length of the tube are the same)
Some guys made it in Poland but in Polo, Golf and didn't have similar issues. on the dynamometer they gained 25-30 HP with this mod, without any other modifications or software. Even now, car is runnig great, can say even beter than 1.6 FSI, but want to fix EGR too.
We don't have a flow meter, only map sensor (so no option to diagnose with logs and graphs), and a wideband probe, but the restrictor is still a resonator and a pipe to the air filter box, so the air is still limited even if the throttle has gained some width. To do it properly, the intake would also have to be enlarged and a different air filter box and a larger pipe diameter would have to be installed, but for now I'm doing tests. I have no way of checking if the EGR valve opens after starting the car, but it looks like it does, because the engine chokes or doesn't start at all, I disconnect the EGR and it works fine, it looks to me like the MAP and ECU are controlling the EGR and opening it too quickly, but why? Since others haven't had this problem. ECU doesnt need other soft, because I didnt touch camshaft or injectors, these are sufficient for 100-105HP (btw, no one won't to touch MM ECU, they said its a crap). If I don't find another solution, I'll have to completely block the EGR, but I don't want to do that because it will give me a check engine light
 
No expert, but I thought that EGR should moving at the startup, as only small amount of oxygen would be required to keep the engine going.
Could it be because the tube from EGR to TB is the same, but overall amount of air coming in through TB has changed,
thus changing the oxygen/fuel ratio ECU expects, so it freaks out?

Like when you have a vacuum leak, ECU tends to run extra rich to keep the expected air/fuel mixture ratio.
I guess the change of TB would constantly change that ratio and idk if this TB can be adapted to meet the ECU expectations?
Could be more of a mapping mismatch?
 
Hi @dice111,

Fantastic reply, very detailed which is a good thing. 🙂👍

If we forget for a minute that the car is modified and just diagnose the MAP sensor DTC and consider thst the car runs perfectly with the EGR unplugged.
My idea would be always the same.

Check or replace all pipework, seals, gasket etc that join the intake after the throttle body valve.
And the perhaps the tiny 90° camcase to manifold breather rubber hose?
Back to basics 🙂
 
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Guys, every sealing is a new, I have no air leak, with leak VCDS will show immediately error in ECU. Yes, MAP sensor, ECU EGR is connected and controls depending on the amount of air, ECU can handle fuel injection without a program due to the increased amount of air, these serial injectors are fine. What else I want to do and test is to throw out the resonator that limits the air flow and run it without a pipe from the air filter box, most guys did simply custom intake system (i.e. air filter pipe, box up to the intake maintfold)
 
Hi,
Thanks for letting me know the seals are new.
Looking forward to hear what happens when you remove the resonator, all good I hope.
Do you have any photographs you would like to post of you're engine bay modifications please?
🙂👍
 
There is no chance of doing it correctly on an ECU from Magneti Marelli, removing the EGR in it costs $500 in our country, and spending that much just to get the check engine off the odometer makes no sense. Nobody wants to touch the software, and one person is doing it in Poland. For it to run well, you need to replace the ECU with the one from BBZ (and remove the immo), and also the injectors with those from BBZ, because the BBZ ECU will not properly handle those from BBY, and make a custom intake. On the ECU and injectors from BBZ, EGR should theoretically work ok. The EGR valve is the same for BBY and BBZ. In my opinion, the intake manifold of BBZ and BBY has exactly the same flow, it is only changed so that the throttle valve from Renault fits, because it cannot be mounted correctly in the manifold from BBY. So what is the difference between BBY and BBZ in terms of power? ECU, shafts, injectors, throttle body, intake, EGR pipe (only because the intake is different).

The ECU from MM is a crap, any tuner will do it on BOSCH. Really curious how Danne did it and everything works fine for him, IMO this is NOT possible on original ECU for BBY.
 
Photos for you:
Old intake with removed resonator

removed throttle

removed intake manifold

new intake

new intake with new throttle

new intake with new throttle and resonator

zoom to fmic pipe (you need to cut resonator little bit and put pipe with two ties

zoom to egr valve and new egr pipe
 
Hi,
Thanks for those photographs, I have looked at all of them in detail.

Hopefully you will get it sorted out.

C

Thread 'BBY to BBZ change'

Guys I have a problem. My BBY 1.4 petrol engine died earlier this when low oil pressure took its toll. I found another BBY and found out that there are two variants of this engine! One to suit a 085 gearbox (Lupo etc) and one to suit 02 gearboxes, such as the A2. So the search started again. I found a BBZ engine locally and after a bit of investigating I found the block and head to be identical, but with bigger inlet manifold injectors and throttle body (100hp over the BBYs 75hp). So I changed everything off my old engine inc the sump and all ancillaries And started it. All good to begin...
  • Sad
 
Hi @dice111

From the detailed information you have provided in you're previous posts I can safely say you know about engines.
Are you a mechanic?

I hope the following message doesn't sound authoritarian. I am giving you the best assistance from personal experience.

The aim of you're thread is to get some ideas to reach a goal - a car with no faults 🙂

There are about 30 locations for engine seals in a BBY/AUA , give ot take, and some seals are not part of the intake system but still can be detrimental to efficient combustion.
One seal that is a worn letting in air may not be noticed by the engine but what if 5 or 10 are all leaking slightly after 20 years of service life?

Then add an in intake upgrade?
Could that be enough to tip the scales?

Seals and gaskets are cheap and easy to replace.Replacing seals etc.. can give some confidence that the solution maybe to buy injectors and ECU from a BBZ. You won't know is you don't try it.

Good luck
🙂👍

Sent a DM to a thread containing BBY seal locations.

EDIT
Google search
Cumulative Effects on Vehicle Performance
  • Mileage/age:
    As a vehicle mileage increases, its components experience wear and tear

  • Engine Performance:
    Over time, engine components degrade, resulting in reduced power & fuel efficiency
 
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I didn't pick up on first reading that the ECU was from the original rather than the upgrade donor vehicle. In all of the successful conversions I read about using the higher performance intake parts on the 1.4i, both increased air (throttle body / intake manifold / associated EGR pipework) was balanced with increased fuelling (injectors, ECU containing appropriate software with an immo delete) - so AUA -> AUB ECU, BBY -> BBZ ECU. Without this the errors seen above regarding an air volume inbalance would be unsurprising and given how these things impact in turn on lambda values the engine is probably in a confused state.

It would appear from post
above that @dice111 have come to the same conclusion?

As @rotifer II has stated though, everything else regarding carriage of air through the system must also be in top condition.
 
@PlasticMac - we don't have flow meter in BBY, only MAP, no option to log anything relevant from it, you can just test it and check V (MAP was replaced anyway). The flow meter would change these values by itself, colloquially speaking it would "adapt" to the new air flow, MAP would generally do the trick too, but the ECU software doesn't allow it, and you can't do anything with the MM ECU (someone in Poland made an EGR emulator for it 4 years ago after many failed attempts).

@Robin_Cox - It in this way does not get full air now on the 60mm throttle, because it is limited by the resonator, which is specific in the A2, and not like in the Golf or Polo, where there is a housing, engine cover by the way. But changing the intake will not change anything, in the sense of this error, because without the restrictors from the filter box, pipe or resonator it is the same (i.e. it breathes full without an air filter).
@rotifer II - thank you for your PM, but this is not due to seals or air leak, everything is tight as it should be, the values are wrong
Probably I will move back to standard intake mainfold and throttle with EGR, car now is running great, comparing to 1.6, but check engine, unplugged EGR and last issue is rpm on idle speed when car is running, even 5km/h, until you stop, idle speed fluctuates gently from 0.9 to 1k rpm - when you stop, they hold firmly at about 0.7 or 0.8 rpm (I don't remember) - it only confirms that it doesn't work as it should

It was supposed to be a cheap mod, additional 25-30HP up to $250 on new parts, but it doesn't work without BBZ ECU and injectors, it can work if someone can handle chip on MM ECU, but no one touch it in PL, 90% doing only BOSCH.

If any of you want to have fun and have more time to play with it, I can sell you cheap new intake, pipe and throttle from a 1.6 renault (original renault, made by Siemens)
 
Hello,
My config is polo gti intake, golf 4 1.6 throttle body, egr deleted. I had the problem too, and i found a partial solution.
i made a Frankenstein ECU software, with one part of the BCB software and one part of the BBY software. Be careful, if you use the full software of the BCB or another ECU your A/C will not work any more.
Sometime in very low rpm the fault appears again, but it doesn't stay, switch off and on the key the car run well again.
I think the problem come from the table in the ECU of the MAP sensor, the value in certain condition is different due to the amount of air and it think there is a leak. I didn't found in the software where is it...
 
dice111 said:
@PlasticMac - we don't have flow meter in BBY, only MAP, no option to log anything relevant from it, you can just test it and check V (MAP was replaced anyway). The flow meter would change these values by itself, colloquially speaking it would "adapt" to the new air flow, MAP would generally do the trick too, but the ECU software doesn't allow it, and you can't do anything with the MM ECU (someone in Poland made an EGR emulator for it 4 years ago after many failed attempts).
Click to expand...
So Lambda, Injection Timing, Manifold Pressure, etc, wouldn't give you some idea of what needs changing?
Without an ECU that can be remapped, a bit pointless, I suppose.
Mac.
 
@PlasticMac we have wideband lambda probe, so it can correct the mixture in the full load range, at WOT (wide open throttle) too, so it goes to the end in CL (closed loop, ECU operation mode in which the ECU is guided by the probe readings).
Yes, without an ECU that can be remapped, you can ony change to ECU, which can be mapped. In theory (again) it should work fine with BBZ ECU, but BBY injectosr won't run correctly with its soft, so you need to change them too, maybe even camshafts (?) the topic starts to become more and more expensive and the costs then exceed the value achieved

@kilou5542 A/C won't start on Polo GTI ECU ? What about BBZ ? or simply any other BOSCH which can be later modded by tuner ?
 
@dice111 I don't know with Polo GTI Ecu but for sure with ECU from Golf 4 1.6 BCB engine the A/C doesn't start.
The climatronic doesn't receive the information through the Can Bus
 
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