How green are electric cars

[Evoman]

From the report itself:

"It might seem obvious to say that when more of your electricity comes from renewable sources, the greener an electric car becomes - but the difference really is staggering.

Taking the Volkswagen ID.3 electric car as an example (pictured above), Green NCAP found that if you are driving and charging this car in Sweden - the country with the highest share of electricity from renewables - the GHG required to generate the electricity is so low that it is substantially lower than all forms of combustion car.

Whereas in Poland, which in Green NCAP’s study has the highest amount of electricity generated from burning coal, an electric vehicle will actually have higher life cycle GHG emissions than a petrol or diesel car, making it much worse for the environment.

As a hypothetical, Green NCAP also points out in its study that should electricity come from purely renewable sources, the electricity required to keep the ID.3 driving for 150,000 miles would be so small, the total greenhouse gasses over the vehicle’s lifetime would be half that of a non-electric car."

RAB

Absolutely, the greener the energy to charge the EV the sooner the larger carbon footprint of manufacturing the EV is 'paid off'.

Can we take that last scenario to equate to 8 years of using the EV car is the point at which it then 'overtakes' the ICE car in terms of carbon footprint given the reference 'lifetime' is 16 years do you think? That's the kind of useful practical information that should help inform the general public on their car purchasing choices.

 

[Guest 4123]

Can we take that last scenario to equate to 8 years of using the EV car is the point at which it then 'overtakes' the ICE car in terms of carbon footprint given the reference 'lifetime' is 16 years do you think? That's the kind of useful practical information that should help inform the general public on their car purchasing choices.

Not really because according to post #7, even in the USA, where power generation is 60% fossil fuel, the lifetime emissions of an EV are about 40% of those of an ICE.

RAB

 

[Evoman]

That's exactly why the article is more about power generation than EVs.

RAB

I think there is a considerable focus on this aspect of the LCA because as you pointed out above with the ID3 example it has a significant bearing on the overall carbon footprint.

The manufacturing aspects of the EV including mining minerals for batteries etc. is also a significant part of the assessment but they chose not to elaborate on that aspect in the article. I suppose as a potential buyer there isn't much you can do about that and it is a set quantity of carbon from that manufacturing process.

However to be informed on your purchasing decision understanding the energy make-up of renewables and non-renewables for the part of the world you live in has a strong influence on determining that point at which the manufacturing carbon footprint can be negated against an equivalent ICE car. After that point you are then into the 'better green' scenario?

 

[Guest 4123]

The manufacturing aspects of the EV including mining minerals for batteries etc. is also a significant part of the assessment but they chose not to elaborate on that aspect in the article.

This is the first line of the article:

"Green NCAP has released its first life cycle analysis (LCA) figures for 61 cars. The figures include the total amount of greenhouse gases and primary energy demand required for the extraction of raw materials, manufacturing, distribution of cars, along with their running, recycling and final disposal."

RAB

 

[maxufeiss]

As a hypothetical, Green NCAP also points out in its study that should electricity come from purely renewable sources, the electricity required to keep the ID.3 driving for 150,000 miles would be so small, the total greenhouse gasses over the vehicle’s lifetime would be half that of a non-electric car."

I see it like: Old used small economical diesel (that is already made and by their standards has ended it's life by mileage alone) is in same category even when electricity is 100% renewable, compared to electric car.
In most of europe 1.2TDI would be winning hard, 1.4TDI just winning with a proud smile on owners face. Most existing somewhat economic cars should be used, not replaced by a new electric ones etc.
Push for electricity on passenger vehicles is often unjustified when entire carpark gets larger and heavier every year, be it electric or not. Roads need more repair if cars are heavy. More and larger tires needed etc.

Reduce, Reuse, Repair and Recycle. For current topic, add "Replace" (with an electric car) wherever suitable depending on your current car status, place where it is running, age, fuel usage etc etc... Replace should almost never be the first thing.
Reduce should include things like trains, trams, trolleys and other more efficient transport than car for everyone (plus highway to suburbia).

 

[Guest 4123]

I see it like: Old used small economical diesel (that is already made and by their standards has ended it's life by mileage alone) is in same category even when electricity is 100% renewable, compared to electric car.
In most of europe 1.2TDI would be winning hard, 1.4TDI just winning with a proud smile on owners face. Most existing somewhat economic cars should be used, not replaced by a new electric ones etc.
Push for electricity on passenger vehicles is often unjustified when entire carpark gets larger and heavier every year, be it electric or not. Roads need more repair if cars are heavy. More and larger tires needed etc.

Reduce, Reuse, Repair and Recycle. For current topic, add "Replace" (with an electric car) wherever suitable depending on your current car status, place where it is running, age, fuel usage etc etc... Replace should almost never be the first thing.
Reduce should include things like trains, trams, trolleys and other more efficient transport than car for everyone (plus highway to suburbia).

Unfortunately, we have to stop taking carbon from the ground and putting it in the atmosphere, otherwise we face a grim future. That means that there's no future for fossil cars and non-fossil cars will have very low carbon emissions. How we get there is another thing. Replace doesn't necessarily have to mean carbon emissions.

RAB

 

[Skipton01]

It does not make it greener the fact that I have 'tried one'

Try and do 500 miles mainly on motorways in one day and you will run back to ICE..

Easily done and I'd never choose ICE over EV for long trips now. Yes, I have a Tesla (base model 3) and I have my trusty old A2 (1 owner from new, me!) and travelling anywhere in the UK, I have absolutely no range anxiety, none at all. The Supercharger infrastructure put in place by Tesla is such that I know that I'll never have to wait more than around 20 mins to charge up again, so about the time it takes to stretch your legs and have a loo break.
And, the cost per mile for fuel is far far less in the EV than in the A2, despite it being one of the most economical cars on the road, even with the recent hike in electricity costs.
Trying an EV is not enough, you need to live with one for a month or two and you'll soon see that all this cr4p being put out there by the media is absolute nonsense.
Maintenance wise, there's nothing to do on the Tesla, other than the usual wear and tear items (tyres, shocks etc) and it's the only car I've ever bought where the manufacturer hasn't tried to sell me a maintenance package. The legacy manufacturers still do this for their EV models, but with only one moving part, there's not much they can do in the workshop.

The trouble with much of the mainstream press in their bashing of EVs is that they're ignoring the new disruptors in the market and focussing on the old brands and their 'new' EV offerings. These are pitiful in almost all areas: economy, range, speed, acceleration, cost, reliability, charging etc

So no, I'll never run back to dino-juice cars. Ever.

 

[donp38]

Easily done and I'd never choose ICE over EV for long trips now. Yes, I have a Tesla (base model 3) and I have my trusty old A2 (1 owner from new, me!) and travelling anywhere in the UK, I have absolutely no range anxiety, none at all. The Supercharger infrastructure put in place by Tesla is such that I know that I'll never have to wait more than around 20 mins to charge up again, so about the time it takes to stretch your legs and have a loo break.
And, the cost per mile for fuel is far far less in the EV than in the A2, despite it being one of the most economical cars on the road, even with the recent hike in electricity costs.
Trying an EV is not enough, you need to live with one for a month or two and you'll soon see that all this cr4p being put out there by the media is absolute nonsense.
Maintenance wise, there's nothing to do on the Tesla, other than the usual wear and tear items (tyres, shocks etc) and it's the only car I've ever bought where the manufacturer hasn't tried to sell me a maintenance package. The legacy manufacturers still do this for their EV models, but with only one moving part, there's not much they can do in the workshop.

The trouble with much of the mainstream press in their bashing of EVs is that they're ignoring the new disruptors in the market and focussing on the old brands and their 'new' EV offerings. These are pitiful in almost all areas: economy, range, speed, acceleration, cost, reliability, charging etc

So no, I'll never run back to dino-juice cars. Ever.

I fully agree with you.
However, I will assume you have not tried to travel long distances within Wales...? But never mind.
Have you purchased tyres for your tesla yet? The price is eye watering... But that does not refer back to being Green, just economy.
I am glad you enjoy your EV. I simply do not. My experience of TESLA has been very poor.
Best wishes and safe motoring.

 

[Skipton01]

It's funny you mention about tyres - I've just had to replace the rear offside due to getting a large flooring brad in it, too big to repair. Total cost for replacement, inc all the usual extras (balancing, recycling etc) was £136. This is for a Toyo Proxes of the right load capacity, speed index and size. No need for a special EV tyre, so again, don't believe the press. In fact the base model Q4 has 19" wheels, which are a lot more expensive.

And as to Wales, blame the Welsh Assembly for a lack of superchargers - they wanted to go their own way and initially denied planning permission to Tesla, however, they're now getting their act together and there's Superchargers in Bridgend, Flint and Aberystwyth and more planned. But then you'll struggle to do 500 motorway miles in Wales, as per your suggestion, as there's only 134 miles currently in the whole country.

Out of interest, what has contributed to your poor Tesla experience? I'm sure that the company would welcome feedback and proactively take steps to ensure any issues are not carried on to other owners.

 

[Guest 4123]

Have you purchased tyres for your tesla yet? The price is eye watering...

Where do you get your information from? Why should tyres for an EV be any different from those for any other comparable car?

RAB

 

[Skipton01]

It's just a common misconception, propagated by the usual press, which makes potential EV owners think that ownership is more of a chore than with a fossil fuel car. They need to be able to cope with the added weight and acceleration of an EV etc. Utter cr4p.

 

[cheechy]

It's just a common misconception, propagated by the usual press, which makes potential EV owners think that ownership is more of a chore than with a fossil fuel car. They need to be able to cope with the added weight and acceleration of an EV etc. Utter cr4p.

It goes back to my comments from a few days back. The Murdoch press propping up the incumbent populist leave government see EVs as a "left wing" thing and as such take every opportunity to take a swipe at them.

We appear to politicise just every decision now.

Just to rebalance - yes you can fit ordinary tyres but tesla certified tyres are slightly different and have a bit of foam on the inside to attempt to dampen road noise. You can though fit what you want as long as the loading is right.

 

[Skipton01]

Many OE manufacturer approved tyres have this acoustic foam on the inside - my last Jaguar tyres were the same. Make sod all difference in reality, but do make it much harder to repair punctures by the roadside.

As to politicising things, I slightly disagree with you. I don't think that EVs are seen as left-wing or liberal. It's mainly a push back from the legacy manufacturers and oil conglomerates who all feel threatened by the new technology and are funding (both monetarily and morally) the press to scare people into buying fossil fuel powered cars and vans until the last minute possible in each country.

 

[donp38]

I had to pay £780 for three 19" tyres. They gave me the fourth one for free at they broke the wheel when fitting/taking off..
Knocking front suspension that they claim to be character after not finding it. Then wanting to charge me for any further investigative work.
Plus some other things.... I have fought with them and now will move on to something else...

 

[Guest 4123]

As to politicising things, I slightly disagree with you. I don't think that EVs are seen as left-wing or liberal. It's mainly a push back from the legacy manufacturers and oil conglomerates who all feel threatened by the new technology and are funding (both monetarily and morally) the press to scare people into buying fossil fuel powered cars and vans until the last minute possible in each country.

Most evenings while I'm charging the wife's E-Up at the local Podpoint/Tesco (it's free!), I look through Google (without searching) on my phone. There's always some insidious nonsense about EVs, particularly from the Daily Express. At the same time, the government is limiting new renewable generation:

Limits on renewables ‘will keep UK energy bills higher this winter’

Government limit on contracts for new renewable energy generation is ‘outdated thinking’, says Greenpeace UK

www.theguardian.com

The fossil fuel companies that subscribe to the Brexit party get good value for money!

RAB

 

[Skipton01]

Well, as previously mentioned, 19" tyres will be more expensive than 18" and also, you had no compulsion to use Tesla for tyres, just as you don't have to use Audi for e-tron tyres, which if you do a search, are around £250 a corner for the standard 19" Q4 e-tron.

Knocking noises are common to pretty much all car makes and the trick is being able to demonstrate the knock to a dealer. If the car was under warranty, then there'd be no charges to pay. Sounds like you had a poor dealer - they exist in most manufacturers sadly.

I've had 3 issues so far with my Model 3 - firstly, it was subject to a recall for a heat pump issue which was fixed in 45 minutes. The second issue was a knocking noise from the front, followed by the horn not working, fixed on my driveway within a week (it was the horn had come off its mount, causing the knocking, then the wire snapping meaning the horn died). Lastly, the seatbelt buckle sensor has failed on the drivers seat which will be fixed on 12th July (could have it done next week, but I want a loaner).

No issues have had the car off the road. None are safety related (even the horn, one of the dual pair worked) and all are diagnosed remotely and fixed for free in a timely manner.

 

[Skipton01]

Most evenings while I'm charging the wife's E-Up at the local Podpoint/Tesco (it's free!), I look through Google (without searching) on my phone. There's always some insidious nonsense about EVs, particularly from the Daily Express. At the same time, the government is limiting new renewable generation:

Limits on renewables ‘will keep UK energy bills higher this winter’

Government limit on contracts for new renewable energy generation is ‘outdated thinking’, says Greenpeace UK

www.theguardian.com

The fossil fuel companies that subscribe to the Brexit party get good value for money!

RAB

I suspect that any party in power will be exactly the same. And no, I'm not a Tory. I was a Labour member for over a decade until Kier was voted in.

 

[Guest 4123]

I suspect that any party in power will be exactly the same. And no, I'm not a Tory. I was a Labour member for over a decade until Kier was voted in.

Maybe that's correct but I don't remember any government doing it so blatantly. As for Corbyn, what was he doing appearing on RT?

RAB

 

[Skipton01]

Of course the blonde buffoon will be the most blatant one to do things - hide it all in plain sight.

I don't understand the Corbyn question and wouldn't want to turn the thread political.

Shall we close this one down now and sum up by saying "EVs are greener than their age adjusted ICE equivalent"?

 

[Guest 4123]

There's never any mention of recharging electric cars from a solar source? Why is that? There's lots of sun here, at the moment and I only occasionally use my car. ideal, then, for it to be being charged for free! I've been reading about the Citroen Ami EV .... ~ £7000 and with a range of about 45 miles. Ideal for my week to week use. (They will probably introduce a greater range model as well ) I've thought that it's probably better to purchase a used Nissan Leaf with the higher power battery system (30Kwh) I do like the idea of driving somewhere for no fuel cost whatsoever! At the moment my fuel costs are as low as they can be, with LPG being the fuel used.

David

Here's a good example of a system for charging with solar:

Moixa and Alfen: providing smart charging capabilities to EV owners in a single user-centric platform

Moixa is delighted to work with Alfen in a trial to provide smart charging capabilities to residential electric vehicle (EV) owners by combining solar optimisation, tariff optimisation and grid services into a single user-centric platform.

www.moixa.com

RAB