Just seen this on twitter
- Thread starter shreddedmeat
- Start date
MikeMarsUK
A2OC Donor
The way I look at it, the Veyron is basically a concept/research car, and was only put into production for marketing reasons. My guess would be that the bulk of the $4.6m is the share of the development costs, and that the incremental cost per individual vehicle is actually in the $1-2m area.
I would not be surprised at all if the loss per XL1 will be about the same, given massive development costs & also the tiny production volumes.
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timmus
A2OC Donor
As Mike suggests, the table doesn't take into accounts the benefits that a particular brand will get from the development of a particular model. Audi might have made a loss on the A2, but how much did they learn from its development? Have later ASF-based cars clawed back the losses many times over?
As an aside, the Phaeton has always confused me slightly. Why did VW make a car to tread on the A8's toes?
Tom
As an aside, the Phaeton has always confused me slightly. Why did VW make a car to tread on the A8's toes?
Tom
shreddedmeat
Active Member
It strikes me that a few of those cars wouldn't have been made at all if there wasn't a long term engineering benefit. But I cannot say the same for the hateful little cars that are the Fiat Stilo and the 1007
Brand image? A test bed for some interesting engines (V10 TDI/W12)?
Cheers
John L
A2OC Donor
How much does the Phaeton share with the A8? Could it be that engine development costs/other expenses are placed on the Phaeton account but used elsewhere?
It is interesting to note that the Mercedes A Class made a loss too. Considering how much worse that an A2 the build quality on the first generation of A class was it is quite surprising that they managed to lose so much...
It would be interesting to see what went on which account.
John
It is interesting to note that the Mercedes A Class made a loss too. Considering how much worse that an A2 the build quality on the first generation of A class was it is quite surprising that they managed to lose so much...
It would be interesting to see what went on which account.
John
shreddedmeat
Active Member
Wikipedia has this to say:
"The Phaeton was conceived by Ferdinand Piëch, then chairman of Volkswagen Group.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Piëch wanted Volkswagen engineers to create a car that would surpass the German prestige market leaders, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. The decision to release the Phaeton was, in part, a response to Mercedes' decision to compete directly with Volkswagen in the European marketplace with the low-cost A-Class. It was also intended to support the Volkswagen brand image, since the most expensive versions of lesser models, such as the Golf GTI, were starting to cost almost as much as equivalently-sized prestige brands. Although the Volkswagen group already has a direct competitor in the full-sized luxury segment, the Audi A8, the Phaeton is intended to be more of a comfort-oriented limousine like the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and Lexus LS, while the Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series are more sport-oriented. [SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]
Initial development of the Phaeton, given the internal project code VW611, began with Piëch giving his engineers a list of ten parameters the car needed to fulfill. Most of these specifications were not made known to the public, but a number of them were told to automotive reporters. One of them was that the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) with an exterior temperature of 50 °C (122 °F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C (72 °F).[SUP][5][/SUP] Piëch requested this even though the Phaeton's top speed was electronically limited to 250 kilometres per hour (155.3 mph).[SUP][6][/SUP] Another requirement was that the car should possess torsional rigidity of 37,000 N·m/degree."
Cheers
"The Phaeton was conceived by Ferdinand Piëch, then chairman of Volkswagen Group.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Piëch wanted Volkswagen engineers to create a car that would surpass the German prestige market leaders, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. The decision to release the Phaeton was, in part, a response to Mercedes' decision to compete directly with Volkswagen in the European marketplace with the low-cost A-Class. It was also intended to support the Volkswagen brand image, since the most expensive versions of lesser models, such as the Golf GTI, were starting to cost almost as much as equivalently-sized prestige brands. Although the Volkswagen group already has a direct competitor in the full-sized luxury segment, the Audi A8, the Phaeton is intended to be more of a comfort-oriented limousine like the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and Lexus LS, while the Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series are more sport-oriented. [SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP]
Initial development of the Phaeton, given the internal project code VW611, began with Piëch giving his engineers a list of ten parameters the car needed to fulfill. Most of these specifications were not made known to the public, but a number of them were told to automotive reporters. One of them was that the Phaeton should be capable of being driven all day at 300 kilometres per hour (186 mph) with an exterior temperature of 50 °C (122 °F) whilst maintaining the interior temperature at 22 °C (72 °F).[SUP][5][/SUP] Piëch requested this even though the Phaeton's top speed was electronically limited to 250 kilometres per hour (155.3 mph).[SUP][6][/SUP] Another requirement was that the car should possess torsional rigidity of 37,000 N·m/degree."
Cheers
dan_b
A2OC Donor
And of course it does show the somewhat ludicrous thinking with respect to the A2 - the R&D cost to develop the initial model made it expensive, but if they had had developed and launched a Mk2 model, they no doubt would have been able to significantly reduce the production cost and made a profit-per-model more likely?
I was reading about Concorde the other day - they actually had a Concorde model B developed which had a heavier payload capacity, a longer range, quieter sub-sonic cruise (especially takeoff and landing) and a significantly lower fuel burn rate (the mk2 Olympus engines they had developed didn't need afterburners at all) and that would undoubtedly have been more commercially successful - in fact the next one on the production line would have been a version B, but because the project was cancelled due to low airline interest it never got far enough to see the light of day. One more order would have done it
I was reading about Concorde the other day - they actually had a Concorde model B developed which had a heavier payload capacity, a longer range, quieter sub-sonic cruise (especially takeoff and landing) and a significantly lower fuel burn rate (the mk2 Olympus engines they had developed didn't need afterburners at all) and that would undoubtedly have been more commercially successful - in fact the next one on the production line would have been a version B, but because the project was cancelled due to low airline interest it never got far enough to see the light of day. One more order would have done it
bretti_kivi
Member
ha, [citation needed] in a wiki article. Don't get me started....
interesting to see the numbers, though.
- Bret
interesting to see the numbers, though.
- Bret
hotdog1
Member
£6K on each one !
http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/financial-disasters-the-cars-that-lost-a-fortune#image=3
Worth a quick read - apologies for the journalism (lack of).
http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/financial-disasters-the-cars-that-lost-a-fortune#image=3
Worth a quick read - apologies for the journalism (lack of).
John L
A2OC Donor
There is of course the other issue of longevity here. I expect with the A2 being more desirable than the A class for example that Audi will claw back some of their losses over the longer life of an A2 than for example an A class.
The drop off of A classes on the howmanyleft website is a lot steeper than for the A2.
I know this is not the aim with making a new car but I guess some of the classics must have cost more in parts than they did new by now. For example think of the longevity of the original beetle.
The drop off of A classes on the howmanyleft website is a lot steeper than for the A2.
I know this is not the aim with making a new car but I guess some of the classics must have cost more in parts than they did new by now. For example think of the longevity of the original beetle.
chumsofmanutd
A2OC Donor
It is a common misconception that the A8 and Phaeton are very similar, in fact in reality the Phaeton and A8 share rare little (excluding power train options). The A8 has an aluminium chassis as opposed to the Steel Phaeton and the A8's electrical architecture and infotainment system is always around a generation ahead of the Phaeton.
The fact that the Phaeton is the platform used for the 'cheaper' Bentley Continental models (~130K) and the A8 is the platform used for the flagship Mulsanne (~250k) probably best reflects the differences and the fact that the A8 is a far superior vehicle IMO.
Cheers
Rob.
shreddedmeat
Active Member
Haha, I actually hesitated before posting it! In fairness, that fact was correct
I've only ever been a passenger in a raggedy old diesel to be honest. Have nothing against the Fiat/Alfa brand though - in fact quite the opposite!
dlp
A2OC Donor
A2 in good company?
In a sense, it seems quite encouraging for the A2 to be in the same league as more 'exclusive' cars like the Bugatti Veyron, VW Phaeton and Jaguar X-Type - as well as its old arch-rival [at time of launch in 2000] the Mercedes A-Class.
Unfortunately, though, as this recent little article that I spotted in MoneyWeek shows, the league table is one of commercial flops.
I suppose there's some consolation in the fact that the A2 isn't at the top of the list.
But maybe - certainly as in the A2's case - the fact that the company's automative designers triumphed over its bean-counters actually made for the production of a superior car.
Comments invited!
In a sense, it seems quite encouraging for the A2 to be in the same league as more 'exclusive' cars like the Bugatti Veyron, VW Phaeton and Jaguar X-Type - as well as its old arch-rival [at time of launch in 2000] the Mercedes A-Class.
Unfortunately, though, as this recent little article that I spotted in MoneyWeek shows, the league table is one of commercial flops.
I suppose there's some consolation in the fact that the A2 isn't at the top of the list.
But maybe - certainly as in the A2's case - the fact that the company's automative designers triumphed over its bean-counters actually made for the production of a superior car.
Comments invited!
