New Emissions charge in London
- Thread starter steveb
- Start date
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Guest 4123
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Guest 4123
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Ha ha... I have checked the three 1.2tdi's this morning. I have done this before and they all complied. Now the two Lupos apparently don't comply but the A2 does! But because the A2 has PAS and A/C it has slightly higher emissions! What a complete and utter shambles! An appropriate email to the right person will sort this out!
RAB
RAB
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Guest 4123
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Sent to Tfl:
"We have three cars in our family two VW Lupo 3L's and one Audi A2 1.2Tdi that I have checked previously for compliance with the T-charge and they were all shown as not being subject to the T-charge. While all three cars are nominally Euro 3, due to their exceptional fuel efficiency (95mpg), all three meet the emission requirements for Euro 4 and therefore should not be subject to the charge. So imagine my surprise this morning on checking again, to find that the Lupo's do not now qualify but the Audi still does, especially so since the Lupo's have slightly lower emissions than the Audi! I also know of other examples where cars with identical specifications are met with different responses. It would appear that your administration of the T-charge is an utter shambles!"
RAB
"We have three cars in our family two VW Lupo 3L's and one Audi A2 1.2Tdi that I have checked previously for compliance with the T-charge and they were all shown as not being subject to the T-charge. While all three cars are nominally Euro 3, due to their exceptional fuel efficiency (95mpg), all three meet the emission requirements for Euro 4 and therefore should not be subject to the charge. So imagine my surprise this morning on checking again, to find that the Lupo's do not now qualify but the Audi still does, especially so since the Lupo's have slightly lower emissions than the Audi! I also know of other examples where cars with identical specifications are met with different responses. It would appear that your administration of the T-charge is an utter shambles!"
RAB
ecoangel
Well-Known Member
VW/Audi 1191cc diesels almost Euro 5
If the insurers can't cope with 3L cars then TfL is even less likely to!
My German docs state the emissions of the A2 D3 and these are much the same as more recent Euro 5 cars even without a PM trap.
The A2 combined consumption and emissions were very slightly lower than the Lupo 3L in tests - mostly due better aero at higher speeds.
Best regards
If the insurers can't cope with 3L cars then TfL is even less likely to!
My German docs state the emissions of the A2 D3 and these are much the same as more recent Euro 5 cars even without a PM trap.
The A2 combined consumption and emissions were very slightly lower than the Lupo 3L in tests - mostly due better aero at higher speeds.
Best regards
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Guest 4123
Guest
Not true Lukas, although there's not much in it:
Engine CO NOx HC+NOx Partr.
Audi A2 1.2TDi ANY 0.228 0.240 0.261 0.021
Lupo 3L ANY 0.222 0.220 No Value 0.023
Lupo 3L AYZ 0.202 0.220 0.242 0.019
RAB
Bargepower
A2OC Donor
As it's Saturday and the congestion and toxicity charges aren't in operation at the weekend, on my return trip from Ilford (collecting a tyre) I was rebellious and returned home through central London, including a run up the Embankment and past Trafalgar Square - in my non-compliant 2000 1.4 petrol A2 
Skipton01
Admin Team
Not that I'd be subject to the charge - the last time I was in central london was in 2009 - but I've just checked Tank's plate and here's another ATL TDi90 that IS subject to the charge, despite being EU4 compliant.
TfL needs to sort it's database out and quickly, before they start to actually lose money from pursuing legal actions against those who will ultimately win!
TfL needs to sort it's database out and quickly, before they start to actually lose money from pursuing legal actions against those who will ultimately win!
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Guest 4123
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No, not just about particulates. It's whether it meets the Euro 4 emission standards or not.
RAB
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Guest 4123
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Kleynie
A2OC Donor
Yes, but my point was that you said the 3L should meet Euro 4 due to its exceptional fuel economy, but should it as you have no idea what particulates it's pushing out? For example, my 535d BMW meets Euro 6 but still pushes out 153g/km of CO2, which is more than your A2 TDi, but as it has a DPF the particulates are very low, making it ok for the T charge.
It seems your complaint to TFL is unfounded? Or maybe I've misunderstood?
Skipton01
Admin Team
The whole point is that TfL, the actual body who are implementing the T Charge, say that it is ONLY the EU emissions standard which determines whether a newer vehicle will be subject to the charge.
The above is directly from the TfL website and as you can see, in the case of cars, if it meets EU4, then it's exempt. We've shown various examples of where their database gives false results (some TDi90s are charged, some are exempt for example), so the system is flawed and particulates only come into it for vehicles built prior to the Eu3 standard.
The above is directly from the TfL website and as you can see, in the case of cars, if it meets EU4, then it's exempt. We've shown various examples of where their database gives false results (some TDi90s are charged, some are exempt for example), so the system is flawed and particulates only come into it for vehicles built prior to the Eu3 standard.
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Guest 4123
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The particulates value is on the vehicle's CoC and V5, as are all the required emission values. They are all below the Euro 4 requirements.
RAB
There was an interesting article recently examining the actual real world emissions from EUR 6 compliant vehicles with older vehicles. An interesting read, I'll see if i can find it and attach the link.
The long and the short of it was the test conditions set for cars to meet these standards are carried out at predetermined loads in laboratory conditions. Some cars that are compliant emit in real world driving conditions well under the limits set for NOx (nitrogen oxides) whereas others emitted up to eighteen times the NOx limits set.
Edit: okay here is the article, long read but worthwhile
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/how_toxic_is_your_car_exhaust
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Guest 4123
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The emphasis on weight for particulates is mistaken; more account should be made of particulate quality and less on quantity. The smaller the particle, the more it is able to penetrate the body. This is quoted from Wikipedia:
"The smallest particles, less than 100 nanometers (nanoparticles), may be even more damaging to the cardiovascular system.[53] Nanoparticles can pass through cell membranes and migrate into other organs, including the brain. Particles emitted from modern diesel engines (commonly referred to as Diesel Particulate Matter, or DPM) are typically in the size range of 100 nanometers (0.1 micrometer). These soot particles also carry carcinogens like benzopyrenes adsorbed on their surface. Particulate mass is not a proper measure of the health hazard, because one particle of 10 µm diameter has approximately the same mass as 1 million particles of 100 nm diameter, but is much less hazardous, as it unlikely to enter the alveoli. Legislative limits for engine emissions based on mass are therefore not protective. Proposals for new regulations exist in some countries,[which?] with suggestions to limit the particle surface area or the particle count (numerical quantity) instead.
from this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates#Health_effects
Your DPF may just be an ultrafine particulate generator!
RAB
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Guest 4123
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The value for particulates common to all the Euro standards is grams/km, just as for CO2 etc. My complaint is that all emission values for all three cars are below the Euro 4 standards and therefore should not have to pay the T-charge. However, according to TfL, only one complies.
RAB
RAB