Toe In / Toe Out: A2's at front? Odd handling!

A tworque Monster said:
Seems to me from reading everything you have described is, sounding like its diff related. I have experienced the same symptom in another car. Worth spanner checking all the main bolts underneath. I experienced creaks from underload & breaking, never lateral forces, so used a breaker bar to check main bolts to get a true feel of how far tight they were done up, creak emerged, four bolt's got about a quarter turn.
Differentials can make you think something is loose / worn, but if everything else you have checked is fine, the diff is more than likely the culprit..?
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Thank you. Could you clarify which four bolts you're highlighting? Like I say, I've tried all the usual wiggles, rotations etc etc with the car in the air and the diif feels fine as far as I can tell. I confess I didn't think to have someone hold the other wheel and have the car in gear whilst I did this: it might be doing that reveals some new noises. Trouble with this theory is the car does it going in (what is intended to be!) a straight line when the diff is not doing anything.

As far as I can see, as it's not a LSD, you'd need both one driveshaft to not get the drive to its wheel and the diff to be locked as well (otherwise you'd get no drive at all).
 
bretti_kivi said:
let me explain - i had some work done a long time back. I don't remember what, though I think it might have been wishbones. When accelerating, the car would pull so far to the left that the ESP light came on. There were loose bolts involved. I don't remember the details but I would definitely check the bolts over.

- Bret
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Yes, I like this theory as there are weird noises in the area, the car has been worked on (arms, rear bushes possibly) and you could get these symptoms but still achieve that very credible economy if the relationship between the front wheels is O.K., but that whole assembly is shifting relative to the rest of the car.

Thank you Bret, much appreciate your thoughts. I tell you what, if this is the issue, I'll be very pleased to have found it as that's potentially quite nasty. No doubt as soon as something like this starts fretting, it'll get loose very quickly.

After all that, it'll be the tyres ?
 
audifan said:
Not a true LSD but it does have a form of electronic LSD, perhaps that is where the problem lies.
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The Passat throws its light when it engages the 'electronic diff'. No lights here. As it happens, it's absolute tosh to call it that, it's only clamping one brake up: nothing to do with the gearbox at all. The marketing men have been at the facts and pushed them to the limits. TEB would have been better: Traction Enhancing Braking ? But I take your point.

ABS unit doesn't seem to be doing anything, if it was electronic it probably wouldn't be so nuanced with amount of off-throttling plus brake wear is identical either side (fairly recent pads and disks but not new). Just doesn't feel like that to me. I guess to test I could disable the ABS sensors and try it, but I'll try the loose bolt(s) idea first. I had already mulled this when I saw that pic of Smurf's underside as hadn't seen an A2 from that angle before. Always been looking at the underneath from the front. I wrote a reply on Smurf's thread saying this, but deleted it again :rolleyes:
 
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Do you have a feeling of whether it is more a transient thing or if it goes to the left for a longer period eg several second after going to engine brake?
Is the behavoiur identical if you just lift the padal to get zero torque?
 
Rusty911 said:
Thank you. Could you clarify which four bolts you're highlighting? Like I say, I've tried all the usual wiggles, rotations etc etc with the car in the air and the diif feels fine as far as I can tell. I confess I didn't think to have someone hold the other wheel and have the car in gear whilst I did this: it might be doing that reveals some new noises. Trouble with this theory is the car does it going in (what is intended to be!) a straight line when the diff is not doing anything.

As far as I can see, as it's not a LSD, you'd need both one driveshaft to not get the drive to its wheel and the diff to be locked as well (otherwise you'd get no drive at all).
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The main bolts that hold the subframe to body, just go over all the main biggies, as you may find some that can be torqued up just that little more than off say a half inch drive ratchet's shaft handle, hence why I mentioned my experience, using a breaker bar with a socket on the end of it instead, you will get more feel to torqueing up the bolts by letting the breaker bar do its work than struggle with a ratchet (can easily give a false sense of a bolt being fully tightened with less leverage).
 
A tworque Monster said:
The main bolts that hold the subframe to body, just go over all the main biggies, as you may find some that can be torqued up just that little more than off say a half inch drive ratchet's shaft handle, hence why I mentioned my experience, using a breaker bar with a socket on the end of it instead, you will get more feel to torqueing up the bolts by letting the breaker bar do its work than struggle with a ratchet (can easily give a false sense of a bolt being fully tightened with less leverage).
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I'm so sorry, I completely misunderstood you and thought you talking diff related bolts of some sort.

Yes, totally agree, plus I'll not make the mistake of simply tightening, but attempt to back each bolt off by a fraction first. Those who have re-torqued new, non-stretch head bolts after the required running will agree the two methods yield completely different results.
 
Joga said:
Do you have a feeling of whether it is more a transient thing or if it goes to the left for a longer period eg several second after going to engine brake?
Is the behavoiur identical if you just lift the padal to get zero torque?
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Actually, no, you raise a good point: you come off the throttle and it goes left. What it doesn't do (I think) is then carry on pulling to the left until the power is reapplied. Having said that, it'd be interesting to see, perhaps by finding an open space, come off the throttle quickly and then dip the clutch, just to see what happens.

If the subframe was shifting, you'd imagine it would stay in that position until power is reapplied.

If it was, say overly compliant rubber bushes / tyres on one side though, you'd then think they'd move during the deceleration but spring back as the power goes neutral.

Having dumped the thing at Rusty Workshops I'm getting more tempted to take a battery up there and bring it back to Rusty Towers for another poke around :)

Just one thing: I always think it's a bit of a cheat going in on a 'let's try everything' mission and always much more diagnostically satisfying to have some suspects in mind, even if proved wrong!
 
okay, so in my case it was applying power that caused things to shift and then the issue was less pronounced when lifting off or on partial throttle.

- Bret
 
Another line of thinking, are the wishbones replaced earlier? What would then be the result if one side had gotten petrol bushes which are said to be softer , and the other side had diesel bushes?
 
Joga said:
Another line of thinking, are the wishbones replaced earlier? What would then be the result if one side had gotten petrol bushes which are said to be softer , and the other side had diesel bushes?
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I like your thinking! However, you'd then perhaps expect some power-on shift as well possibly?

Anyway, I think we've probably flogged this particular horse as far as we can without me lifting its tail and sticking my hand up its metaphorical bottom.

I shall report back when I have done this and removed my examination gloves :oops:
 
All the focus has been on the front end but what about a rear wheel steering issue. Worth checking if anything is loose / worn on the back axle. If it's been happening for a while it may show up in 'odd' tyre wear

Cheers Spike
 
spike said:
All the focus has been on the front end but what about a rear wheel steering issue. Worth checking if anything is loose / worn on the back axle. If it's been happening for a while it may show up in 'odd' tyre wear

Cheers Spike
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Thanks Spike. I've been looking at the front as, whilst the rear bushes look 'interesting', the car otherwise handles fairly O.K., it does it even on straight roads, so far no odd tyre wear at back, all the noises are at the front and I consider the rear to be fairly inert under straight-ahead conditions.

I guess if I get to the point of eliminating the front though, that will
indeed suggest things are pointing toward a really bendy body or, as you say, something at the back.
 
Howey said:
Have known tyres to do this but very rare swapping front around might help?
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Yes, I agree but will check those subframe fastenings and get the crowbar involved with all bushes first, just because it's sensible to do anyway, esp in light of various noises.

As above, I want to try it on the lighter wheels anyway (which themselves are pretty ropey but I'd be very unlucky to have them recreate the same issues.

I have to say, if these were Pirelli's they would have been my first port of call though: have had some extraordinary weirdness from those over the years.
 
Never rated Pirelli myself and dont think much of goodyear/dunlop on that subject
My galaxy used to pull badly and it was suspension top mounts
 
Howey said:
Never rated Pirelli myself and dont think much of goodyear/dunlop on that subject
My galaxy used to pull badly and it was suspension top mounts
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Did it simply pull all of the time or under certain conditions?

As above, steering doesn't seem
unduly stiff and I didn't notice any issues with self centring.
 
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