Diesel engine swap compability

3dB

3dB

Member
My GF's A2 engine got a hole in block , so I'm in for a engine swap. :( Originally car have AMF engine. What kind of physical differences there is between AMF and BHC and ATL engines? Like different mount points, crank ends etc... Don't care about turbo or electrical system differences, as those I can sort out easily (exaust collectors bolt on same on any of those and difference between AMF and ATL turbo can be solved with N75 change, ecu reprogramming and some vacuum hose routing). Basically I want to find out what kind of engine to get to straight swap in the car. Is there any other VAG group cars, that can be donors for 1.4TDi PD engine?
 
Hi 3dB,

The AMF and BHC engine use the same core engine. The only differences between the AMF and BHC engine are bolt-on components. The ATL engine uses a lower compression ratio and is, internally, different to the AMF and BHC engines.

Cheers,

Tom
 
Pistons, turbo, ecu and injectors aside, could I just bolt on ATL in place of AMF?
 
3dB said:
Pistons, turbo, ecu and injectors aside, could I just bolt on ATL in place of AMF?
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If you're just going to use the cast iron block, yes. But if you're wanting to use the ATL engine with its existing crankshaft, con rods, pistons, etc, then no.

Cheers,

Tom
 
3dB said:
Stupid question probalby, but why not?
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I'm no expert, so am happy to be corrected by others, but here's my understanding...
The engine with the higher compression ratio (TDI75) is used in combination with a wastegate turbo. The engine with the lower compression ratio (TDI90) is used in combination with a VGT turbo. If you use the core engine from a TDI90, with its lower compression ratio, in combination with the wastegate turbo from the TDI75, you will probably find that performance is worse and fuel consumption is higher.
 
Good luck, not that I believe in luck. A friend passed on a great definition, luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
 
Polo AMF engine swap is complete. Car runs and drives better than ever. Differences between Polo and A2 AMF engine was the hole for oil sensor, that was easily resolved swapping parts from old engine.

Hole in the original block was caused by broken crankshaft holder screw. Screw head broke off, got in the balancer wheel and was shot to the engine wall causing a crack and hole. s**t happens, I guess...
 
3dB said:
Polo AMF engine swap is complete. Car runs and drives better than ever. Differences between Polo and A2 AMF engine was the hole for oil sensor, that was easily resolved swapping parts from old engine.

Hole in the original block was caused by broken crankshaft holder screw. Screw head broke off, got in the balancer wheel and was shot to the engine wall causing a crack and hole. s**t happens, I guess...
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Chuffed to bits for you well done ? and useful info for another a2 owner wanting to do the same ..
 
ecoangel said:
ANY 1.2 TDI also possible!
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Do you have any experience on such swap? I have an old Lupo 3L with the ANY 1.2 TDI engine that is in good condition, but the body is rusting away. Just bought an A2 with the ATL engine and do not like its rough run below 2000RPM, while the 1.2TDI runs smoothly already from 800RPM up. Both engines have variable vane turbos, and also other components look similar, so maybe the old ATL ECU would control the ANY as well? Therefore the critical question is, if the ANY block could mate the existing gearbox at A2?
 
joviita said:
Do you have any experience on such swap? I have an old Lupo 3L with the ANY 1.2 TDI engine that is in good condition, but the body is rusting away. Just bought an A2 with the ATL engine and do not like its rough run below 2000RPM, while the 1.2TDI runs smoothly already from 800RPM up. Both engines have variable vane turbos, and also other components look similar, so maybe the old ATL ECU would control the ANY as well? Therefore the critical question is, if the ANY block could mate the existing gearbox at A2?
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maybe target this question to @RAB ?
 
joviita said:
Do you have any experience on such swap? I have an old Lupo 3L with the ANY 1.2 TDI engine that is in good condition, but the body is rusting away. Just bought an A2 with the ATL engine and do not like its rough run below 2000RPM, while the 1.2TDI runs smoothly already from 800RPM up. Both engines have variable vane turbos, and also other components look similar, so maybe the old ATL ECU would control the ANY as well? Therefore the critical question is, if the ANY block could mate the existing gearbox at A2?
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I don't know to be honest because the ANY block is unique in being aluminium; it might be compatible. You'd have to use the ANY ECU but that might also give problems; you would have to circumvent any interlocks that normally prevent the engine from starting under some circumstances. Converting the A2 to a full 3L is not possible using Lupo 3L components - there are too many differences. Even the drive shafts are different lengths, not by much though.

RAB
 
RAB said:
I don't know to be honest because the ANY block is unique in being aluminium; it might be compatible. You'd have to use the ANY ECU but that might also give problems; you would have to circumvent any interlocks that normally prevent the engine from starting under some circumstances. Converting the A2 to a full 3L is not possible using Lupo 3L components - there are too many differences. Even the drive shafts are different lengths, not by much though.

RAB
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Thanks of the answer! However, my point is not to convert the A2 to a normal A2 3L . Having owned the 3L Lupo for 21 years, I know well the weak points of its technology, and the A2 3L has the same critical components, mainly the automated manual gearbox and its hydraulics. I do not want them. However, the engine itself is good and reliable, therefore I would like to keep the A2 manual gearbox and driveshafts, the ECU etc. and just replace the ATL engine with the ANY engine. Because the main parts to be controlled by the ECU are similar in both engines ( variable vane turbo in both, similar tandem pump, same EGR, same intercooler ) then I would assume that the A2 ECU would see all the same components in the ANY engine, too. Notably, the AMF and ANY would be less identical. Of course, the control parameters would be different for some, like the turbo pressure, but e.g. the fuel supply is regulated by the (smaller) injectors, the ECU just gives the relative control values to them, so that would not be a problem, if the electrical interface is similar. The only absolutely critical point is the mechanical compliance between the ANY engine, clutch, and the A2 existing gearbox. Less critical is the engine attachment: because the ANY engine is smaller and lighter, I would assume it would be easy to do the attachment modifications, if needed.
I know that in Germany it has been popular to convert the 3L A2 and 3L Lupo to manual gearshift, but it looks much more complicated, because then there will be major modifications to the engine ECU, the gearbox control unit, pedals, linkages, etc. I assume the A2 manual gearbox does not have any measured control values to be sent to the engine ECU for stopping the engine like the 3L gearbox controller has, it is just dumb mechanics. When I look the ANY and ATL gearbox pictures, they look very different, but would need dimensional drawings to check if the attachment is possible at all.

Cheers, Jouko
 
The ATL and ANY have different ECUs so don't expect the ATL ECU to work (if at all) with an ANY. It might be simpler to source another ATL.

RAB
 
joviita said:
do not like its rough run below 2000RPM, while the 1.2TDI runs smoothly already from 800RPM up.
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What age or condition is the DMF? My ATL transformed quite alot replacing the DMF at 180’km. Before it could not be driven below 2krpm, now it can. That being said, it still like to be above 2krpm when accelerating, as DMF likes high rpm.
 
Olerype said:
What age or condition is the DMF? My ATL transformed quite alot replacing the DMF at 180’km. Before it could not be driven below 2krpm, now it can. That being said, it still like to be above 2krpm when accelerating, as DMF likes high rpm.
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Yes, that was replaced immediately when I got the car, before that it was quite impossible to go below 2000RPM. Now it is better, but still not as smooth as the ANY. I guess the combination of heavier pistons and 60% more torque makes the work of the balancing shaft harder. Or is there any other source of vibration? I do not have experience on other ATL engines.
 
RAB said:
The ATL and ANY have different ECUs so don't expect the ATL ECU to work (if at all) with an ANY. It might be simpler to source another ATL.

RAB
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I searched the German user forum, and indeed found a similar discussion. There was also an answer by a guy from Scotland who claimed (quote):
"

[1.4 TDI ATL] Umbau auf 1.2 TDI ANY​

stylophonic antwortete auf Kurt66's Thema in Technik
1,2 aluminum block has al the same mounting points as atl, amf, bhc.. you would use all anscillaries from your atl.. injectors,,,turbo, manifold egr system you would also use the oil pic up and sump from your atl.. you can use atl gearbox but you would have to get a flywheel custom balanced to fit to your atl box it weighs 20 kilos less and you would get..."

(end quote) I did not find more details, e.g. it seems that at the same time he/she wanted to get more power by also swapping the injectors and turbo etc. which I would not do. As expected, the DMF clutch+flywheel would need to be replaced by some custom one (although for tuning purposes the builder would anyway replace the ANY clutch for one with better torque handling - again no need for me).

Jouko
 
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