brake shoes slipping off wheel cylinder piston

I always take the hub off now when replacing the shoes as it SO much easier because you can pre assemble some of the shoes with the springs on the bench first then just slip them on. It's nice to torque it up but as long as it is tight enough the time and hassle saved is worth it.
 
Ah, here's a previous thread about replacing the wheel bearings. The .pdf attachments in the second post go through the procedure of removing and fitting the bearings and the torque settings for doing so (I knew that I had seen this somewhere as I was browsing the forum for info on replacing the backing plates):-
Rear wheel bearing - just checking before I start
So, it seems pulling tools are required. Also I see assembly tools mentioned; 3420 which looks like a nut to pre tighten the hub to the stop position (would the old hub nuts do the trick I wonder?) and 3241/4 for fitting new dust caps (I don't think that my dust caps have been replaced, they look a bit battered). I do wonder if the garages where I have had bearings replaced used these assembly tools?

Anyway, I have still not even got the brake parts yet (somewhere in the UK on a UPS van I guess) so I have time to ponder whether I will go to the trouble of getting all the necessary tools or just take the parts to a local garage who will agree to fit parts that I have not bought from them.
 
I've done a couple of rear wheel bearings and have not needed any special tools

For the dust cover I started with an old kitchen knife, tapped it into the join, going right round the cap. Repeated this with wider and wider tools until the gap was large enough to pry off the cover. If you are not re-using the dust caps you don't need to be so gentle.
The bearings were not tight and did not need a puller (although I did have a set if needed)

Did not need anything special to replace the bearings. If you do need to tap them home ONLY apply pressure to the inner bearing race with an appropriate size piece if tube

Dust caps can be tapped home. Key is to get them started 'square' and use a soft faced hammer or piece of wood to prevent bruising the caps.

The torque wrench is good practice but I've done many jobs in the past without one. Just try and get a feel for the leverage required to remove the old nut and use the same length socket wrench bar when replacing them. How many people use a torque wrench when replacing wheel nuts - which are probably more safety critical.
Just be aware of what you are doing and be realistic of your mechanical capabilities. If in any doubt take the car to a garage after you have done the brakes and get the nuts torqued up correctly.

Cheers Spike
 
spike said:
I've done a couple of rear wheel bearings and have not needed any special tools
Click to expand...
Good to know.

spike said:
The bearings were not tight and did not need a puller (although I did have a set if needed)
Click to expand...
So, not always needed, but if I have not got a puller and find that I need one, then I go out and buy one... Halfords have a simple one for only 13 notes but not in stock, only for delivery or reservation in a few days anywhere near me.

spike said:
The torque wrench is good practice but I've done many jobs in the past without one.
Click to expand...
OK, but you maybe have the feel as you are more experienced. I may just see if I can get one anyway, I need a suitable socket and a better driver anyway.
Again Halfords have a decent looking one for 40 notes or a B&Q cheapy for 25-30.

The cost of this is beginning to mount up... but still not as much as the garage was asking for.
I used to have a good tool collection but when they were stolen from a previous residence I never bothered to build it up again and just relied on garages for maintenance, just lazy I guess. Maybe it's time for me to build up a good tool collection again.
 
I got all the parts, had the drums powder coated and got a new torque wrench for the hub nuts and waited for some fine weather. I managed to get a good shot at it today. The hub came of easily but the backing plate bolts were so rusted up that I will never be able to get them off. I removed as much of the rust as I could to enable a socket to be fitted over them, gave them a good few squirts of WD40 waited a while and tried to turn the first one. I tapped the wrench with a hammer a few times but they would not budge, I did not put too much pressure on them in case I just rounded them.
I did not think to get new bolts either, so even if I managed to turn them I would not have wanted to continue, no point putting the old rusty ones back again.

At least I now know that I can manage to get the shoes off and on again myself though.
But so much for getting pre-assembled shoes... I had to take at least the top outside spring off the old ones to get them back on again.


d4v1d sm4rtpre said:
assemble some of the shoes with the springs on the bench first then just slip them on.
Click to expand...
Just slip them on he said... there must be a knack to that. Have you got three or four hands or something? :confused:


Well, that's it I will have to take it to a garage now and there's only a week left before its next MOT... :mad:
 
For the rusted backplate bolts you could try the old trick of trying to tighten the bolt a fraction first, followed by slackening it. Repeat the cycle several times and with a bit of luck you will get it moving. If the thread is still tight don't try and undo it in one go but repeat the slack - tight process with regular sprays of WD 40. It's a bit like re-tapping the thread but using the existing bolt.

Cheers Spike
 
Thanks Spike, but it's done now and in for its MOT.
They failed it on the color coming off the indicator bulbs????? I have never heard of that before.
Plus the seatbelt becoming freyed, and that is a part winch takes 2 days to get.

Also a suspension arm and droplink.

Damn, and I was concentrating on getting the brakes done so it would pass.

Sent from my awesome Ubuntu Touch ubuphablet device using the Forum Browser app
 
Mostly good news and a couple of easy fixes to sort out.
Indicators have to flash 'yellow' and with clear lenses that's all down to the coating on the bulb so it's understandable.

Cheers Spike
 
Was the reason found why shoe didn't align center of piston? I'm having the same problem right now. The shoe is still on top of piston, but on the side of it. I see that the nylon gliders in a dust plate are a bit worn, but having looked from google how thin they are as new, it seems not to be the reason. The top springs seems different to each other, the inner one being stronger. That pulls the shoes inward, I guess. My logic says that the most obvious reason for the shoe missaligment is bent dust plate, but I hope I'm wrong. I will try assemble all with new parts and see what happens. Any advice appreciated.
 
Pekka2 said:
Was the reason found why shoe didn't align center of piston? I'm having the same problem right now. The shoe is still on top of piston, but on the side of it. I see that the nylon gliders in a dust plate are a bit worn, but having looked from google how thin they are as new, it seems not to be the reason. The top springs seems different to each other, the inner one being stronger. That pulls the shoes inward, I guess. My logic says that the most obvious reason for the shoe missaligment is bent dust plate, but I hope I'm wrong. I will try assemble all with new parts and see what happens. Any advice appreciated.
Click to expand...

Quite often this can be caused by the brake shoe springs not being fitted correctly, when they are fitted correctly they should pull the shoe into position.

The plate that you refer to as the Dust Plate is far more than that and is a very strong steel plate and so should not be easily bent.

Steve B
 
Thanks Steve, I will pay attention to that. Yes, the dust plate is strong, not easily bent. So probably it's the assembly that matters.

One more question, if I may ask. Is it ok to remove the hub to help brake job or is it risk to damage the wheel bearing? I feel without taking hub out, removing and installing shoes may be difficult.

Pekka from snowy Finland
 
Pekka2 said:
Thanks Steve, I will pay attention to that. Yes, the dust plate is strong, not easily bent. So probably it's the assembly that matters.

One more question, if I may ask. Is it ok to remove the hub to help brake job or is it risk to damage the wheel bearing? I feel without taking hub out, removing and installing shoes may be difficult.

Pekka from snowy Finland
Click to expand...

it is not usual to remove the hub, the work involved is not worth the effort. You should find it easy enough to leave it on, most people do that. It is not worth the effort in my view.

Steve B
 
I personally found it easier to remove the hub with the rear brakes with shoes takes 2 minutes, its just the dust cap and one nut , just take it easy pulling the hub off and put your fingers behind the oil seal to stop the wheel bearings seperating, the reason i found it easier was getting all the springs on the shoes is so much easier as after youv removed the shoe retainers, which hold the shoes against the back plate , you can pull the shoes away from the back plate and tilt the whole assembly on the hand brake cable so its horizontal and makes removing the springs so so much easier.. take photos during strip down so you can get everything re assembled the same way.. i did take some photos when i did mine a few months ago but cant find them ..
 
moi,

takajarrut pitas olla helppo... en mä uskoo :) It was supposed to be easy.. I left it to Vianor... you may want to get a spare rear brake hose if you *must* use the car, I know they nearly broke one of mine and so I'm still running with the old piston on one side. Passed Katsastus, so I'm not too worried...

Here some pictures which may help; (page 2 onwards is more useful). There's no complete guide but there is a part list in post 10 which I'd suggest following. https://a2-freun.de/forum/showthread.php?t=38184

ja Tervehdys!

- Bret
 
did you already buy the kit? there's one with the shoes already part assembled , it's a *lot* easier that way, apparently...

- Bret
 
Job done. I comfirm that the job is easely doable without removing the hub. I mean easily if you know what you are doing :) I must confess, I had many hard moment until I learned... Almost cried in agony sometimes :)

As Bret mentioned, pipe is easely damaged when removing the wheel cylinder. My job started with a broken pipe. Luckily I have a flaring tool and had the correct nut so I could repair that. The pipes were so corroded that maybe they should be changed in near future. On the other side the pipe would have broked aswell, but I tried different approach. I kept the nut by knipex and turned the wheel cylinder. After that I gave the nut some serious heat and it freed itself from the pipe.

I put the old shoes to wise and removed the top big spring with a screwdriver. Other springs are not hard to remove. I used that old spring as a hook (gripped with knipex) when assembling the new spring. I found that it was easiest not to assemble the whole shoe set in wise, but take the shoe with a handbrake lever separately and attach that to handbrake cable first (loosen the handbrake adjuster nut in the cabin first). Then slide both shoes in place on top of cylinder pistons and attach the top small spring (note, the big spring was attached in vice!), then the handbrake adjusting wedge spring and the lower horizontal spring.

The new shoes located to pistons nicely, even though the old ones were assembled right. Maybe the old springs were "died" or something?

I painted the new drums for aestetic reasons. The brakes are very sweet now, can go to katsastus (MOT) to show them without worry.

Bret, do you live in Finland? If you need help with changing the wheel cylinder, I'm glad to help. Or just go for coffee and talk some A2 stuff :)

Pekka
 
Kyllä, asuu Lahdessa. Kahvi kuulostaa hyvältä! En tiedä kuinka paljon aika minulla on ennen Joulu, liikkaa työtä ja bändikeikat. Työ on Helsingissä, siksi minä rakastan VR tämän vuoden aikana kun lumi yllätty....

Tammikuusa pari hullut Saksalaiset A2-ajajat tulee uudestaan minun järjestetyt jääradan-ajon vuoksi :D Sanoo, kun haluu mukaan :)

- Bret


(I just did my test, I think I can almost write in Finnish now... but yes, coffee sounds good. not sure how much time I will have before Christmas, as it's really busy at work and I have a couple of band gigs. Work is in Helsinki, which would be why I love VR at this time of year when snow surprises them! The German guys - A2 drivers - will be back in January for Track, and we'll probably have time then. Let me know if you want to join us!)

- Bret
 
Kirjoitat täysin ymmärrettävää suomea. VR tunnetusti lopettaa toiminnan heti kun ensimmäinen lumihiutale lentää raiteelle :) Asun itse pääkaupunkiseudulla (Vantaa), tosin käyn aika harvoin Helsingin ydinkeskustassa. Tuo jäärata-ajo saksalaisten hullujen kanssa kuulostaa hyvältä!

(Ice track day with grazy german A2 drivers sounds great, count me in!)
 
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