Budget 2017

[Mbzpar]

Unlike Timmus, personally I would rather see VED set very low and more of the cost loaded onto fuel. I do 25k miles a year, but I believe that pay as you pollute is better than pay to own.QUOTE]

I can see your point, but what would be the impact on UK based haulage firms, who already have to compete with European firms coming over running on cheaper fuel. What about the Irish border...people travelling over from NI to buy cheaper fuel. Not an easy subject, but what are we actually hoping to achieve. Whatever decision any government makes will be based on revenue ultimately.

Its great to see the plus points in the budget and continued evolution of electric vehicles. What does get my goat though is the presumption that they are green. They are getting greener (certainly green at the point of use) but the energy and effort utilized to extract the rare materials in the batteries and the cost of transporting these half-way across the world to a car manufacturer then half-way around the world to sell the car is substantial and ultimately produces a car who's green credentials may not be too dissimilar to a Range Rover. I think this should be looked at from a taxation point of view (the whole carbon footprint of production and use). The government waspro diesel not long ago...electric vehicles might become the new diesel in a few years time.

 

[Skipton01]

As can be seen from the House of Commons briefing document I posted earlier, we in the UK are already the 3rd highest in Europe in respect of diesel prices, despite the tax take from each litre being the lowest. Probably down to exchange rates and the £:$ ratio.

There's pretty much no scope to increase tax take on fuel until the pre-tax price of fuel falls - no chancellor wants to see fuel strikes again, like in 2000.

 

[chb]

If we have the third highest per litre price and the lowest tax take then that basically shows that the fuel companies are ripping off customers. Price Elasticity Demand sets the price at the pump. ie oil companies charge what they think they can get away with! If tax on fuel went up, this does not automatically feed into long term price at the pump as wholesale prices might adjust to factor it in.

 

[ecoangel]

Read DEFRA 2014 roadside tests that included number plate recognition. Older than 2005 diesels emitted less NOx than newer cars (up until Euro 6 regs). In part that is due to a huge rise in #vehicleobesity as the super-size-me SUV consumer culture has taken hold over the past decade.

Euro 6 diesels: independent UK tests in 2016 found that many Euro 5 car on sale (including petrols) and less Euro 6 cars emitted beyond the new euro 6 Nox limit. Interestingly VW / Audi and BMW were all below the NEDC ;laboratory Nox levels of under NOx: 0.08g/km.

However, the highest NOx emissions were found to be at low temps - exactly when we get winter atmospheric highs, temperature inversion in the atmosphere and most of our pollution sent back from Europe in light easterly winds. It is alos the highest amount of space heating (combi boilers) and fossil burning for electricity generation. The Oslo diesel ban last winter had zero effect on air quality. The UK has reduced coal burning but increased fossil gas burning by 45% in 2016 for electricity generation. Most of that is from Qatar but likely to be offset with UK fracking in the near future.

Pushing new car buyers to wards petrol and PHEVs will likely increase CO, CO2, HCs and acrid NH3 (the only pollutant not to have been substantially reduced since 1970s). In te longer term these petrol engines tend to wear faster such that over 50,000 miles they emit more NOx than equivalent diesels.

PM: Modern GDI petrols emit 10 times more ultra fine PM2.5 than diesels and only very recently have some petrol cars been fitted with PM traps.

Tyres: The bigger and heavier the vehicle the larger the wheels and tyres : wearing down from 8mm to 1.6mm for 145/80R14 is not a huge mount of rubber over say 20,000 miles. Wearing down a 245/55R19 tyre is significantly more PM into the local atmosphere. The University of Herts A1M study found that 2/3rds of all PMs were from road contact (tyre and surface wear) not exhausts despite UK's very mixed fleet of vehicles (many of which were smokers).

For A2 TDI owners, PDI engines do tend to "white" smoke when the injector seals go - worth replacing these O rings - looks a bit like an old ford Escort petrol with valve guide stem seal failure.

 

[oko]

Thank you ecoangel, very informative
Had to look up NH3 - ammonia
Would like to see higher road tax on new heavier cars. Insignificant to a new purchase cost at the moment. Then older and a few owners down, a significant polluter.
Martin

 

[Guest 4123]

The source of atmospheric ammonia is mainly from nature and agriculture. It is not a by-product from combustion. The only possible source from the internal combustion engine would be excess use in exhaust after-treatment but this is probably minimal, if not non-existent.

RAB

 

[Pinkythelabrat]

Is ecoangel maybe referring to the ammonia/petrol fuel mixes that were trailed a few years ago? Replacing CH3 with NH3 - I wonder how it smells...


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[Kleynie]

Thank you ecoangel, very informative
Had to look up NH3 - ammonia
Would like to see higher road tax on new heavier cars. Insignificant to a new purchase cost at the moment. Then older and a few owners down, a significant polluter.
Martin

My car weighs 2100kgs, are you saying I should pay more because I have two tall teenage kids that I have to ferry around and need a large car? At least there is usually four of us in the car, rather than having one car each. And my car emits less than your A2's, so why should I pay more?
Not saying your wrong or right, just opening the discussion.

 

[Birchall]

To me, abolishing car tax and increasing the tax on fuel means that it is self governing. The more fuel you burn, the more pollution, so the more you pay.

If you have a second car that you use once a year then you are not paying tax for it just sitting there.

It is not about how many cars you own it is about how much pollution you produce.

So surely a tax on fuel means the efficient cars pay less.

Or is that too simple?

steve B

 

[oko]

My car weighs 2100kgs, are you saying I should pay more because I have two tall teenage kids that I have to ferry around and need a large car? At least there is usually four of us in the car, rather than having one car each. And my car emits less than your A2's, so why should I pay more?
Not saying your wrong or right, just opening the discussion.

I specifically wrote 'new' heavier car. I believe it is necessary to put off people buying gas guzzlers as these are the big polluters even before they hit the road. If you read ecoangels entry, he mentions how much pollution is just down to tyres wear alone. Big cars tend to devalue faster, hence they are more likely to end up with relatively poorer people and maintenance levels drop, increasing pollution. Once the car gets older I think tax should come down as long as emission testing remains strict. (diesel mot test is too lenient).

Four grown ups fit fine in an A2

Cannot believe your 3.5l BMW emits less ! What mpg ? -good indicator but not everything in pollution. By the time your beemer hit the uk in emission terms, my A2 would probably have travelled 30k+ miles. Just think how much brake dust you are producing to stop those 21" wheels
I get 70+mpg
£500 on the price of a new diesel is not enough £2k phased down over a few years and £1k on petrol should more or less do it !

M

 

[Kleynie]

It's not a 3.5, it's a 3 litre, it's just the stupid BMW numbering for twin turbo. The figures are 155mph, 0-60 in 5.7 and 153gCO euro6. It's 8 speed and is sitting at 1800rpm at 70 mph doing 45-50mpg, it never goes below 31mpg around town, which is pretty much the same as the 1.4i A2. Except it has particulate filters and emits far less particulates than any A2, this is what the government is focusing on at present.
And yes we can get four people in an A2, but not for any length of time, and certainly not with luggage.

I'm not saying I'm going to win any eco prizes, but to say bigger cars should be taxed more is wrong IMO.