VW Shares tumble after US accuses them of falsifying emissions data

Not surprised at all that it's happened and the whole 'green' debate on diesel engines baffles me. I hope that this isn't the start of the end of derv as has been speculated.

What does surprise and slightly disappoint me on this forum is the sometime crass speculation and re-hashing of press coverage of this. I've moderated one post which accused VW management of 'knowing all about it' without any factual basis to support the allegation.

I tend to agree with Bret here that there is a lot of flannel around the facts and it's potentially a much wider matter.

Either way it's very sad to read all this negative press about VAG
 
The repercussions are huge, even if the biggest issue is the 480k lean NOx trap cars in the US - this testing only ever originally happened because European pollution levels hadn't fallen as expected given supposedly less-polluting new cars.

Diesel passenger cars are undoubtedly dead now in the US and I can see political pressure affecting them in Europe (just as political pressure encouraged them).
 
The press coverage of this today has been entirely depressing. Thoroughly disappointed in the brand I've loved most of my adult life and equally dismayed as to what all this potentially means. A spokesperson for the German government spoke of the multinational's refusal to seek environmental solutions in automotive technology. There's more to this than VAG being caught cheating emissions tests.

Is diesel really so damaging to the environment? Maybe I need to do some reading. Sorry though - I've become old fashioned in so many ways and didn't see it coming. I just can't see myself driving an electric car.

Surely the production, servicing and disposal of battery cells is environmentally damaging :confused:

edit : the news said VAG shares have dropped up to 30% or some 25 billions. That's mind boggling. Is that sustainable if this issue picks up momentum and criminal charges are levied against the company?
 
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murdo said:
... edit : the news said VAG shares have dropped up to 30% or some 25 billions. That's mind boggling. Is that sustainable if this issue picks up momentum and criminal charges are levied against the company?
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The initial stock market reaction to news like this is almost always an over-reaction.

My suspicion is that in the long term it'll turn out that this method of cheating the test is widespread and affects most manufacturers. But the biggest fines will be for the first to be found out (i.e., VW), and also the non-US manufacturers. Compare Toyota's run-away accelleration scare versus the current GM ignition switch scare - the Toyota thing was 99.9% driver error, but attracted huge fines anyway. I don't think that would have happened with a domestic car firm. Or compare BP Deepwater Horizon versus Exxon Valdez.
 
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murdo said:
Is diesel really so damaging to the environment?
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Diesel's popularity was heavily influenced by political pressure, when CO2 was supposedly the enemy. Particulates and NOx are the big diesel issues - whilst everyone knows to take official figures with a pinch of salt, the lean NOx trap VW Tdis were emitting up to 40 times more NOx than the official figures suggested.
 
If you read this:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080121084718.htm

You'll see that there's also a serious problem with UFP's from petrol cars and aircraft. The future transport will be simpler!

4cycle.JPG

RAB
 
If this were GM or Ford I suspect the US govt wouldn't be hammering them quite so hard. There is a distinct whiff of US protectionism in a number of law suits against non US companies in recent years such I wouldn't risk doing business there. I hope this soon gets resolved but I wouldn't like to be a VW dealer at the moment. I drive high miles he's and tow a caravan and diesel is for me the only option. Perhaps one day the world will wake up to how polluting batteries are, I suspect far more damaging than any diesel will ever be.
 
dan_b said:
And it seems VW knew about this since case from the EPA at least May 2014, but VAG Management have been trying to bluff their way out of the situation since saying there were exceptional circumstances with those test vehicles. Only when faced with a threat to not approve any 2016 VAG models for use in the US did VAG Management admit this code existed.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Read pages 3 and 4 specifically - the ECU was designed to sense for the exact conditions that would be experienced during the EPA test and when those were being met, it would switch away from "highway mode" and enable the "dyno mode" and emissions would plummet accordingly, by a factor of between 10-40x.

I reckon this'll be the end of VAG Group selling diesel in the US at a stroke, and as a minimum.
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According to a friend who works with engine management, most brands have ECUs that detect what type of driving you are doing. Highway, city, towing a camper or dyno. I guess the problem is that VW made their dyno mode unrepresentative of the real world.
 
^^ this is the point, really, isn't it. That the unrepresentation went too far - though as others have said, I suspect very, very strongly that there are additional manufacturers involved and they have all optimized-for-use patterns.

Reducing this to soundbites is going to remain difficult. I do detect a large amount of shouty Schadenfreude, even from the BBC, on this, though.

Winterkorn has gone, so let's see what happens next.

- Bret
 
so the complete EA288 family used the same software.

And? This is news to someone, somewhere, I don't doubt...but it still does nothing for the actual situation.

Emissions testing each year is probably going to be the way forwards.

- Bret
 
bretti_kivi said:
Emissions testing each year is probably going to be the way forwards.
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I suspect you are right but later rather than soon I think. The 1956 Clean Air Act only came about after 1,000s died in 1952 (estimated over 10,000 in London). I guess it would take similar numbers dying, or Chinese levels of smog, before any significant legislation was introduced to curb ongoing vehicle pollution. So I suspect in the short term more stringent type approval is more likely.

Current UK MOT tests are laughable - petrol tests for CO2 and HC using a 2002 standard (unless the car is older) and diesel is just a test for smoke density (pre 1979 visual; 1979 to 2008; or post 2008 standard). But if more stringent tests were introduced (eg NOX and tests equal to manufacturing standards) then I suspect that most existing cars will fail, so retrospective testing is politically unlikely.

If a number of manufacturers have done similar to VW then they all might own up now on the basis governments would not fine them all too heavily as it might cause bankruptcies, unemployment and economic impact - "too big to fail" syndrome.
 
Adrian888 said:
If this were GM or Ford I suspect the US govt wouldn't be hammering them quite so hard. There is a distinct whiff of US protectionism in a number of law suits against non US companies in recent years such I wouldn't risk doing business there. ...
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That reminds me ... Ford was busted last year in the US for dodgy MPG claims. There was no song & dance about it, just a modest goodwill payment to (US) owners with an online claim form.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...abb99249ec726c9985257cf500630c5f!OpenDocument

http://www.ford.com/mpglabel/
 
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Another potential scandal http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34347873
Atmospheric levels of a little known by-product from diesel engines are up 70 times higher than expected according to a study.

Researchers found that long-chain hydrocarbons are significantly under-reported in car manufacturer's data.

These hydrocarbons are a key component of two of the worst air pollutants, ozone and particulate matter.
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When I bought my A2 ten years ago it was my first diesel and a factor in choosing diesel was higher mpg, lower CO2, Euro IV compliance (reducing historic impact of pollution from diesels, so I thought), and long life engine matching long life body - i.e. a keeper for life. Now feeling guilty it was a wrong decision and maybe should have bought petrol.

Going forward, should I need to replace my A2 I would probably go for A2 petrol but electric cars are making inroads rapidly (lots of choice of models and roll out of fast charging points). If I had the skills, time and space then maybe a custom A2 electric conversion (yes I know that shifts the pollution to the energy source but I have solar panels and in second quarter of 2015 renewables (wind, solar, hydro) generated 25.3% of UK electricity).
 
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Glad to find a fellow SolarPV owner on here - I've had my panels for 3 years now, they're great!
 
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