Which gearbox?

[DJ 190]

. I'm just excited that my car could be so much better with the long 5th.

Just be aware that there will be compromises with fitting a longer 5th gear. I originally fitted a 0.681 ratio 5th (instead of the usual 0.651 ratio) Even then, there were occasions when cruising through local (Welsh) lanes, I couldn't quite use my 5th gear. What is your usual type of driving? Town, motorway, country lanes? Obviously, for someone commuting on Motorways, the longer 5th is not going to be problematic. Just don't be TOO excited that this is going to be "much" better. I currently am using a JDD, "blue-motion" box. That has a 0.613 5th gear. It acts almost like a true over-drive box and I only engage 5th at about 55 mph. That is not so bad because the JDD's 4th gear is very close to the original boxes's 5th! I am close to going for the 6th gear conversion (about £1725!) .... so I will have tried nearly everything ..... apart from the 0.651 ratio 5th gear! The currently fitted JDD box shows 2050 rpm at 70 mph .... very quiet and smooth!

David

 

[Dblock]

Just be aware that there will be compromises with fitting a longer 5th gear. I originally fitted a 0.681 ratio 5th (instead of the usual 0.651 ratio) Even then, there were occasions when cruising through local (Welsh) lanes, I couldn't quite use my 5th gear. What is your usual type of driving? Town, motorway, country lanes? Obviously, for someone commuting on Motorways, the longer 5th is not going to be problematic. Just don't be TOO excited that this is going to be "much" better. I currently am using a JDD, "blue-motion" box. That has a 0.613 5th gear. It acts almost like a true over-drive box and I only engage 5th at about 55 mph. That is not so bad because the JDD's 4th gear is very close to the original boxes's 5th! I am close to going for the 6th gear conversion (about £1725!) .... so I will have tried nearly everything ..... apart from the 0.651 ratio 5th gear! The currently fitted JDD box shows 2050 rpm at 70 mph .... very quiet and smooth!

David

For me twice a week I have a 60 mile commute the other 5 days its close to 15 miles all dual carrigeway. 4th would be fine for under 55mph. Its 70mph that the car pretty lives at.

 

[Birchall]

For me twice a week I have a 60 mile commute the other 5 days its close to 15 miles all dual carrigeway. 4th would be fine for under 55mph. Its 70mph that the car pretty lives at.

Hi,

Yes, it is a fair point that the longer ratio fifth gear will improve economy on a motorway or at speed, but it is likely to harm economy around town.

So you need to decide if it would be worth it for you.

The reason it harms economy around town is that it is not always possible to use even the standard 5th gear at low speeds. With the higher ratio 5th gear you will have to stay in 4th for longer and more often than you would normally.

But if you do regular motorway / fast journeys then a 5th gear ratio change will be a sensible option (although even then it will take a lot of diesel to recoup the cost of the conversion.

Steve B

 

[Skipton01]

For me twice a week I have a 60 mile commute the other 5 days its close to 15 miles all dual carrigeway. 4th would be fine for under 55mph. Its 70mph that the car pretty lives at.

In which case, forget about a new gearbox, just use a longer 5th ratio on the standard box.

For a standard TDi75, I'd recommend a 0.659 ratio as the 0.622 will be lugging and the gap between 4 and 5 will be just that bit too much. You'll see revs at around 2100-2150 at 70mph - I published the graphs on here a while back when I first introduced the longer 5th to UK A2s (I experimented on my mapped TDi90 before recommending it to others).

Cheers,

m.

 

[Birchall]

In which case, forget about a new gearbox, just use a longer 5th ratio on the standard box.

For a standard TDi75, I'd recommend a 0.659 ratio as the 0.622 will be lugging and the gap between 4 and 5 will be just that bit too much. You'll see revs at around 2100-2150 at 70mph - I published the graphs on here a while back when I first introduced the longer 5th to UK A2s (I experimented on my mapped TDi90 before recommending it to others).

Cheers,

m.

Absolutely solid and informed advice.

I second that.
Steve B

 

[DJ 190]

For me twice a week I have a 60 mile commute the other 5 days its close to 15 miles all dual carrigeway. 4th would be fine for under 55mph. Its 70mph that the car pretty lives at.

For certain conversions (like the 6th gear set-up), you will never recoup the cost! It is just a personal thing, and the pleasure of ownership! You don't buy a new TV or washing machine and try to recoup its cost, do you? Then, the purchase of a "new" car is going to run into £1000's of £££'s ... no "recouping" there, Eh? I feel that for most A2OC members, A2 ownership is an interest and a hobby! Based on my experiences and the type of driving you have described, I'd go for a 0.681 ratio 5th gear ..... I have driven a car with the 0.659 ratio, but not for any length of time ...

David

 

[dan_b]

Mike's spot on here. That's what I've had in my car for the last 3years or so.

In which case, forget about a new gearbox, just use a longer 5th ratio on the standard box.

For a standard TDi75, I'd recommend a 0.659 ratio as the 0.622 will be lugging and the gap between 4 and 5 will be just that bit too much. You'll see revs at around 2100-2150 at 70mph - I published the graphs on here a while back when I first introduced the longer 5th to UK A2s (I experimented on my mapped TDi90 before recommending it to others).

Cheers,

m.

 

[timmus]

Hi Dblock,

As you mentioned previously, your Arosa has the EXB gearbox and you're running 195/45/R15 tyres in summer.

The EXB's final drive is about 7.1% longer than the final drive found in the A2's EWQ gearbox. However, your tyres' rolling circumference is shorter by a similar figure, meaning that the total product of your gearing is pretty much identical to that of the AMF-based A2. Your first 3 gears are actually marginally longer, but 4th and 5th (where we're concentrating) are as good as identical.

As such, all the info on the site about longer 5th ratios pretty much also applies to your Arosa. I had the (very popular) 0.659 ratio fitted for a few years before I upgraded to 6 gears and it worked very well. Based on my experience, the 0.622 ratio would be too long for the AMF engine; it can be used successfully with a remapped ATL (TDI90) engine, but the gap between 4th and 5th would be too large for you, I think. Furthermore, given that your winter tyres (185/55/R15) are over 5% longer than your summer tyres, I'd not be inclined to lengthen things to the max within the 'box.

Some here have chosen to go with the 0.681 5th gear. It's fractionally shorter than the 0.659 ratio, meaning there's less of a gap between 4th and 5th. However, it's a more expensive cog set and the economy benefits aren't quite as good, meaning it's far less popular.

So, the commonly used 0.659 ratio would appear to be the best choice for your Arosa. Whilst it was drawn for the A2, this graph shows (to within a few percent) what you'll get:



---

As an aside, and included just for general interest, I looked into the EXB 'box a fair bit while deciding how to gear my A2. The graph below shows my thinking:



The black line shows the AMF-based A2 as per factory (EWQ gearbox, standard tyre size). At the end of that, the grey line shows standard 5th and the red line shows the 0.659 longer 5th.
Superimposed over that, the blue line shows what the Arosa's EXB gearbox would do for the A2, if fitted in combination with larger-than-standard 205/50/16 tyres. As you can see, the resultant 5th gear is nearly as long as the 0.659 longer 5th. However, rather than having a gap between 4th and 5th, the gears are spread evenly.
For all that I think it would make an interesting setup with some promise, I decided against it for various reasons. Firstly, I didn't want to lengthen the early gears. Secondly, I wasn't sure whether it would require bodging the mounting as is required when fitting the BlueMotion's JDD 'box. Thirdly, I simply wanted 6 gears!

Cheers,

Tom

 

[MikeMarsUK]

FYI to anyone who has been considering the 6-speed kit, it looks like EuroTuning have dropped the prices by £ 100 (now £ 890 before vat & shipping).

 

[DJ 190]

FYI to anyone who has been considering the 6-speed kit, it looks like EuroTuning have dropped the prices by £ 100 (now £ 890 before vat & shipping).

That's great news! The Euro has weakened against the £, too .... getting about 1.2 Euro's to the £ .... This is very interesting .... "Stealth Racing" also offered me a reduced price (but from what I remember, that was if another potential customer that they were aware of, had also gone for a 6-speed conversion) .... Is there anyone willing to go for this at the same time as I do? I think that it might be about £1500, now? Oh, that includes a full box strip-down, with any worn parts replaced. You would end up with a "mint" condition box!

David

 

[Dblock]

Hi Dblock,

As you mentioned previously, your Arosa has the EXB gearbox and you're running 195/45/R15 tyres in summer.

The EXB's final drive is about 7.1% longer than the final drive found in the A2's EWQ gearbox. However, your tyres' rolling circumference is shorter by a similar figure, meaning that the total product of your gearing is pretty much identical to that of the AMF-based A2. Your first 3 gears are actually marginally longer, but 4th and 5th (where we're concentrating) are as good as identical.

As such, all the info on the site about longer 5th ratios pretty much also applies to your Arosa. I had the (very popular) 0.659 ratio fitted for a few years before I upgraded to 6 gears and it worked very well. Based on my experience, the 0.622 ratio would be too long for the AMF engine; it can be used successfully with a remapped ATL (TDI90) engine, but the gap between 4th and 5th would be too large for you, I think. Furthermore, given that your winter tyres (185/55/R15) are over 5% longer than your summer tyres, I'd not be inclined to lengthen things to the max within the 'box.

Some here have chosen to go with the 0.681 5th gear. It's fractionally shorter than the 0.659 ratio, meaning there's less of a gap between 4th and 5th. However, it's a more expensive cog set and the economy benefits aren't quite as good, meaning it's far less popular.

So, the commonly used 0.659 ratio would appear to be the best choice for your Arosa. Whilst it was drawn for the A2, this graph shows (within a few percent) what you'll get:

View attachment 14112

---

As an aside, and included just for general interest, I looked into the EXB 'box a fair bit while deciding how to gear my A2. The graph below shows my thinking:

View attachment 14111

The black line shows the AMF-based A2 as per factory (EWQ gearbox, standard tyre size). At the end of that, the grey line shows standard 5th and the red line shows the 0.659 longer 5th.
Superimposed over that, the blue line shows what the Arosa's EXB gearbox would do for the A2, if fitted in combination with larger-than-standard 205/50/16 tyres. As you can see, the resultant 5th gear is nearly as long as the 0.659 longer 5th. However, rather than having a gap between 4th and 5th, the gears are spread evenly.
For all that I think it would make an interesting setup with some promise, I decided against it for various reasons. Firstly, I didn't want to lengthen the early gears. Secondly, I wasn't sure whether it would require bodging the mounting as is required when fitting the BlueMotion's JDD 'box. Thirdly, I simply wanted 6 gears!

Cheers,

Tom

Hi Tom,

That sir is an incredible post and I doff my hat to you with gratitude! Fantastically informative and everything I need thanks!

I agree then I think the 0.659 will be better for me. Although I wonder is the A2 much heavier than the arosa/lupo tdi? Or is it the same with all the fancy aluminium?

I just now need to find out weather the cogs will actually fit into the gearbox. No one really knows. Maybe elsawin can help?

 

[Dblock]

In which case, forget about a new gearbox, just use a longer 5th ratio on the standard box.

I have an EXB gearbox not a EWQ and I don't want buy everything get everything apart and find out it doesn't fit. Yes, I've read loads of massive threads with your testing and supplying/fitting the parts.

Again if it fit the 0.659 would be spot on.

thanks

 

[timmus]

Fantastically informative and everything I need thanks!

Quite alright; you're welcome.

I agree then I think the 0.659 will be better for me. Although I wonder is the A2 much heavier than the arosa/lupo tdi? Or is it the same with all the fancy aluminium?

The two cars weigh about the same; a basic A2 is actually about 50kg lighter than a basic Lupo/Arosa, according to the kerb weight data I can find.

I just now need to find out weather the cogs will actually fit into the gearbox. No one really knows. Maybe elsawin can help?

Both the A2 TDI and the Lupo/Arosa TDI use an 02J gearbox. The three letter codes (EWQ, EXB, etc) are used to indicate the internal ratios, but their housings, the selector mechanisms, etc, are all the same. The 02J's 5th gear sits in a little compartment of its own on the end of the gearbox, separated from the first 4 gears and the final drive / diff'. There is no reason I can see why your 02J gearbox won't accept the 0.659 5th gear just like the A2 TDI's 02J gearbox; the compartment is of the same dimensions, the splined shafts are the same, the selector fork is the same, etc...

Cheers,

Tom

 

[DJ 190]

FYI to anyone who has been considering the 6-speed kit, it looks like EuroTuning have dropped the prices by £ 100 (now £ 890 before vat & shipping).

A little more information for you .... Eurotuning's pricing in Euro's is 990 Euro's .... their VAT rate is 21%. Say you get 1.2 Euros to the £ .... then the overall cost in £'s is £998. Delivery to the U.K. is 60 Euro's/£50. So a total cost of £1050 .... it would make a very nice Christmas present! Now, if two units were purchased together, then delivery is free! So that's under a Grand! Any takers?

David

 

[Dblock]

Quite alright; you're welcome.



The two cars weigh about the same; a basic A2 is actually about 50kg lighter than a basic Lupo/Arosa, according to the kerb weight data I can find.



Both the A2 TDI and the Lupo/Arosa TDI use an 02J gearbox. The three letter codes (EWQ, EXB, etc) are used to indicate the internal ratios, but their housings, the selector mechanisms, etc, are all the same. The 02J's 5th gear sits in a little compartment of its own on the end of the gearbox, separated from the first 4 gears and the final drive / diff'. There is no reason I can see why your 02J gearbox won't accept the 0.659 5th gear just like the A2 TDI's 02J gearbox; the compartment is of the same dimensions, the splined shafts are the same, the selector fork is the same, etc...

Cheers,

Tom

I think you have convinced me. I will make the jump. Much appreciated.

 

[luzt]

Would be loverly to see some maps from a tweaked 1.2TDI!
Maybe some pictures of how it looks with the EGR removed?

Been thinking about remapping my loverly 1.2, though knowing what the FLE gearbox is rated for torque wise would comfort me.

Currently running 121hp and 263NM and holding.
Though I still would like to know the gearbox limits.

 

[John L]

I was under the impression that the FLE is designed for 200NM (an 02T gearbox is listed as such in Audi SSP247).
I just had my box rebuilt and think that maybe a slightly tweaked 1.2TDi may be softer on the gearbox if it gives more power at lower revs (on steep hills and such).
I think I may ask the guys who did my gearbox next time I see them as they have huge experience with both tuning and the 1.2Tdi.

 

[luzt]

I was under the impression that the FLE is designed for 200NM (an 02T gearbox is listed as such in Audi SSP247).
I just had my box rebuilt and think that maybe a slightly tweaked 1.2TDi may be softer on the gearbox if it gives more power at lower revs (on steep hills and such).
I think I may ask the guys who did my gearbox next time I see them as they have huge experience with both tuning and the 1.2Tdi.

Design for 200NM or rated as a maximum of 200NM?
Bellow are the calculated numbers for the current map I'm running.

Would be loverly if you could check with them so that I can tune my map to a "secure" level.


EDIT
http://vwts.ru/engine/aua_aub/aua_amf_02t_02j.pdf
It says it's built to transmit torque values of up to 200NM.

Though from with what I've understood this is NOT the gearbox in the 1.2TDI?

2nd EDIT
The 5-speed manual gearbox 085 is the one used in the 1.2TDI Audi A2 + Lupo 1.2TDI
Though I can not find the torque ratings! If it helps it's also used in a -95 Polo.