185/50 R16 vs 195/45 R16

[Jeetesh]

I have recently bought an FSI SE with 16” 6 spoke wheels.

The car has 185/50 R16 Continentals on it and whilst I have some time before I need to replace all four tyres, I thought I’d ask for some opinions.

I’ve read the definitive tyre thread amongst others but I have a slightly different slant to my questions.

When I input my reg onto various tyre suppliers websites the only options that appear are 195/45 R16 and 205/40 R17 obvious the SE and the Sport wheels. My questions are as follows:

1. Should my FSI be running on 195/45 R16?
2. Could FSI SE owners let me know what they are running, I’ll tally up responses to get a proportion on 185 vs 195.
3. Does anyone have any experience of running both tyres (those of you that are running multiple A2’s). Whilst the obvious is bigger contact patch (more grip), less profile and whilst profile is a % of width I’m assuming it shouldn't change the ride quality, noise difference if any and whether economy is notably different.
4. Pictures of 195 to see how much the tyre bulges out compared to 185.
5. Anything else noteworthy.

This came to my attention just prior to MOT and checking everything and started hunting for some Black Friday deals, black circles had some really good offers on 195 (£58 supply) whereas there were next to no deals on 185 (continental £98 supply, fitted was obviously extra) there were very few big brand suppliers for 185.

I don’t have any particular allegiance to Continental however my experience is that they wear twice as quick on Goodyear/Pirelli on my current and previous mercs), I’m running Goodyear Eagle F1’s (runflat) which I love and swear by.

My first A2 TDI (many moons ago) had Michelin Pilot Premacy which did 60k miles on the front and I never changed the rears before it was sold at 89k miles (still having 4mm left on them). I dont think the Michelin’s are available anymore. I really like the Goodyear EfficientGrip so that’s what I’m thinking.

Essentially, I thought I’d ask then once decided, buy when on sale and fit when required.

thanks

Jeetesh.

 

[Proghound]

The three OEM reference sizes are 185/50x16, 175/60x15 and 205/40x17, all of which have the same diameter to within a very few millimeters.

My TDI Sport runs 195/50x16 on Mk1 TT rims, which is about 1% larger than reference size and frankly you would notice more difference from the quality of the tyre and the weight of the rim than you would from the difference in tyre size.

My TDI SE was running 185/55x16, that's about 3% larger diameter which basically takes up all the known speedo error. It's now on 185/65x15 Cross Climates on A3 pepperpots, which are about 5% larger diameter. They fit, don't rub and are like driving on clouds. With the known speedo error this means I am doing true 50 at an indicated 49 or so. I really don't feel that I have anything to fear from the average speed cameras in roadworks when the cruise is on.

 

[bretti_kivi]

your difference on "bulge" will be very tyre-dependent.

195/45R16 will give you a "sporty" ride; 185/50 is more compliant. Yes, there is a difference. 185/50 is the original dimension.

EfficientGrip are what I was looking at recently for the A2, either that or something Hankook. I don't remember teh details, it's not a priority with 10cm fresh snow outside...I run 195/50R15 partly also from a cost perspective, though they are a little small. The winter 185/60R15s ride a lot nicer, but that's as much down to compound as it is to sidewall size.

- Bret

 

[Jeetesh]

The three OEM reference sizes are 185/50x16, 175/60x15 and 205/40x17, all of which have the same diameter to within a very few millimeters.

My TDI Sport runs 195/50x16 on Mk1 TT rims, which is about 1% larger than reference size and frankly you would notice more difference from the quality of the tyre and the weight of the rim than you would from the difference in tyre size.

My TDI SE was running 185/55x16, that's about 3% larger diameter which basically takes up all the known speedo error. It's now on 185/65x15 Cross Climates on A3 pepperpots, which are about 5% larger diameter. They fit, don't rub and are like driving on clouds. With the known speedo error this means I am doing true 50 at an indicated 49 or so. I really don't feel that I have anything to fear from the average speed cameras in roadworks when the cruise is on.

5% larger diameter is marginal and good to know none rub. Are you running standard SE/Sport springs and dampers or do you have anything different? Also the speed difference really is marginal.

 

[Proghound]

The one on the +5% pepperpots is running standard SE suspension, albeit a bit down at the back due to aging. It also has mudflaps which make it a little tighter but so far I've had no issues at all. Admittedly I don't usually have a boot-full of heavy stuff in it though.

The one on the +1% TT rims is a Sport but the suspension has been refreshed with non-OEM parts that I know of - although not all the manufacturers concerned, or how much of a drop they provide. It also sits a bit down at the back.

 

[Jeetesh]

your difference on "bulge" will be very tyre-dependent.

195/45R16 will give you a "sporty" ride; 185/50 is more compliant. Yes, there is a difference. 185/50 is the original dimension.

EfficientGrip are what I was looking at recently for the A2, either that or something Hankook. I don't remember teh details, it's not a priority with 10cm fresh snow outside...I run 195/50R15 partly also from a cost perspective, though they are a little small. The winter 185/60R15s ride a lot nicer, but that's as much down to compound as it is to sidewall size.

- Bret

your difference on "bulge" will be very tyre-dependent.

195/45R16 will give you a "sporty" ride; 185/50 is more compliant. Yes, there is a difference. 185/50 is the original dimension.

EfficientGrip are what I was looking at recently for the A2, either that or something Hankook. I don't remember teh details, it's not a priority with 10cm fresh snow outside...I run 195/50R15 partly also from a cost perspective, though they are a little small. The winter 185/60R15s ride a lot nicer, but that's as much down to compound as it is to sidewall size.

- Bret

10cm of snow in Finland (assuming you are in Finland). Doesn’t Finland have the highest number of racing drivers as a percentage of population?

EfficientGrip, I’ve read a lot around Goodyear and this particular tyre and seems to tick a fair number of boxes. Compound is also such that it generates very low road noise (there are few if any tyres quieter). This would improve already good refinement.

Interesting to note lots of people run 15” wheels. I might have to try and see what the ride quality difference is.

 

[Jeetesh]

The one on the +5% pepperpots is running standard SE suspension, albeit a bit down at the back due to aging. It also has mudflaps which make it a little tighter but so far I've had no issues at all. Admittedly I don't usually have a boot-full of heavy stuff in it though.

The one on the +1% TT rims is a Sport but the suspension has been refreshed with non-OEM parts that I know of - although not all the manufacturers concerned, or how much of a drop they provide. It also sits a bit down at the back.

I don’t expect to run it with a heavy boot, my other car will do those duties. There will be the odd impromptu occasion I’ll have 4 adults and luggage and rubbing is a big bugbear for me hence checking.

Since rears don’t steer, sitting down a bit presumably makes no difference other than just for suspension travel especially if not fully laden. It probably just looks lowered?

I might just check if mine has any sag at the rear when I get I back on Friday.

 

[QuattroA2]

Have been running Continental ContiPremiumContact 185/50R16 81V for two weeks. Only low miles covered, but extremely impressed by high levels of grip, excellent comfort, combined with next to no road noise.

 

[Robin_Cox]

We have three SE-spec A2s. I have two sets of Uniroyal Rainsports in 195/55/16 on one A2, and 195/45/16 on my project A2. Both Tdis, both on Bilstein B4s (at the front at least, all round on the project car). The 195/45/16s are significantly lighter (actual carrying weight of an SE rim with the tyre on - I've compared them one to one on my driveway) than the 55 profile tyres and the steering is very light and responsive. The 55s feel more like wearing walking boots compared to a set of deck shoes, but conversely are good for long motorway trips as you are less affected by potholes / road inconsistencies - they are also a bit sportier to steer (perhaps stiffer sidewalls?) but still not harsh. We also have a set of Aoteli P607 185/50/16s on the 1.4i (also B4 front shocks) and those feel basically the same as the 195/45s - very 'light', nice feel, decent handling and braking in the wet. In a nutshell, if you're on 16" wheels, and the suspension is in good condition on new shocks, lighter tyres (while still being correctly rated for weight and speed) equate to finer suspension and steering feel, whereas I suspect from what others have commented that the 17" wheels, low profile tyres and sport springs may result in the "harsh" ride comments from 20 years ago.

 

[Jeetesh]

Have been running Continental ContiPremiumContact 185/50R16 81V for two weeks. Only low miles covered, but extremely impressed by high levels of grip, excellent comfort, combined with next to no road noise.

Those are what I have on now but by the time they need changing they’ll have done significantly less miles than my merc which is rwd and weighs double my A2. Ultimately I may end up changing for the same but well see.

Thank you for the response, all replies are valuable insight.

 

[Jeetesh]

We have three SE-spec A2s. I have two sets of Uniroyal Rainsports in 195/55/16 on one A2, and 195/45/16 on my project A2. Both Tdis, both on Bilstein B4s (at the front at least, all round on the project car). The 195/45/16s are significantly lighter (actual carrying weight of an SE rim with the tyre on - I've compared them one to one on my driveway) than the 55 profile tyres and the steering is very light and responsive. The 55s feel more like wearing walking boots compared to a set of deck shoes, but conversely are good for long motorway trips as you are less affected by potholes / road inconsistencies - they are also a bit sportier to steer (perhaps stiffer sidewalls?) but still not harsh. We also have a set of Aoteli P607 185/50/16s on the 1.4i (also B4 front shocks) and those feel basically the same as the 195/45s - very 'light', nice feel, decent handling and braking in the wet. In a nutshell, if you're on 16" wheels, and the suspension is in good condition on new shocks, lighter tyres (while still being correctly rated for weight and speed) equate to finer suspension and steering feel, whereas I suspect from what others have commented that the 17" wheels, low profile tyres and sport springs may result in the "harsh" ride comments from 20 years ago.

Wow, thank you for the valuable insight. I’m on 16” wheels and the suspension is indeed in good condition so do like the idea of better steering feel. Incidentally Goodyear EfficientGrip is what VW Up GTI’s have on them.

I’m leaning towards 195/45 R16 subject to what the sidewall bulge looks like, that said the 195 may offer a slight bit extra rim protection as they won’t be flush like the Continentals are right now.

 

[Valpen]

Wow, thank you for the valuable insight. I’m on 16” wheels and the suspension is indeed in good condition so do like the idea of better steering feel. Incidentally Goodyear EfficientGrip is what VW Up GTI’s have on them.
I’m leaning towards 195/45 R16 subject to what the sidewall bulge looks like, that said the 195 may offer a slight bit extra rim protection as they won’t be flush like the Continentals are right now.

I am using the Audi A1 10-spoke 16" wheels (7J width and 34mm offset) for summer with 215/45-16 Nokian Hakka Blue2 tires and am very satisfied. Great wet (and dry) braking, handling is remarkable and low road-noise. They are not cheap, but I try hard not to compromise on tires or brakes...
I am not sure whether your 6 spoke wheels are 6.5 or 7 in width, but the 215/45-16 tire do not rub at all with my setup and provide a little rim protection. My FSI is a European LHD S-Line that supposedly is lowered 10mm from the factory and has stiffer springs. It had the factory 17" Sport spoke wheels with 205/45-17 Dunlop Sport4 tires on it when i got it, but the ride was too harsh, so they were replaced.
Here are some shots of how the profile of the wheels fit in the wheel well.

They are heavier and wider than my winter tires which are pepperpots with 185/60-15 Nokian HakkapeliitaR3 allowing me to use chains as necessary (note the forged pepperpots are very light in comparison to most cast wheels). The winter pepperpots with 185/60-15 tires are very smooth compared to the summer "shoes" and absorb lots of the winter-road unevenness very well, without loosing the road-feel that I prefer.

 

[Jeetesh]

I am using the Audi A1 10-spoke 16" wheels (7J width and 34mm offset) for summer with 215/45-16 Nokian Hakka Blue2 tires and am very satisfied. Great wet (and dry) braking, handling is remarkable and low road-noise. They are not cheap, but I try hard not to compromise on tires or brakes...
I am not sure whether your 6 spoke wheels are 6.5 or 7 in width, but the 215/45-16 tire do not rub at all with my setup and provide a little rim protection. My FSI is a European LHD S-Line that supposedly is lowered 10mm from the factory and has stiffer springs. It had the factory 17" Sport spoke wheels with 205/45-17 Dunlop Sport4 tires on it when i got it, but the ride was too harsh, so they were replaced.
Here are some shots of how the profile of the wheels fit in the wheel well.

They are heavier and wider than my winter tires which are pepperpots with 185/60-15 Nokian HakkapeliitaR3 allowing me to use chains as necessary (note the forged pepperpots are very light in comparison to most cast wheels). The winter pepperpots with 185/60-15 tires are very smooth compared to the summer "shoes" and absorb lots of the winter-road unevenness very well, without loosing the road-feel that I prefer.

I agree on not compromising on brakes or tyres so keen on a good brand however mindful of cost knowing that my A2 is only going to be doing 3-4k miles p.a. There is approx £160 difference between Conti’s and Goodyear for a set of 4 (during sales).

I don’t know what width my wheels are, something I’ll check when I get it back post some retrofit upgrades.

Thank you for the pictures, it gives me an idea of how they look which is what I wanted. ?? Do you have a pic of the side of the car with them on?

The only other thing I don’t know is why Audi would put on 185/50 R16 on the most powerful engine in the range (albeit not the torquiest) and not 195/45 R16 unless they where changed by a previous owner (can’t really see that though) when tyre websites state 195’s.

 

[carlston]

I have recently bought an FSI SE with 16” 6 spoke wheels.

The car has 185/50 R16 Continentals on it.

1. Should my FSI be running on 195/45 R16?

Here are six ranges of tyres. As you move up from Range 1 tyres to Range 6 tyres, the outside diameters of the tyres increases.

Range 1: (Outside diameter 581.9mm to 584.5mm)

175/65R14, 185/55R15, 195/45R16

155/65R15

Range 2: (Outside diameter 586mm to 596.1mm)

145/80R14

185/70R13, 195/60R14, 205/50R15

165/70R14, 175/60R15, 185/50R16

185/65R14, 195/55R15, 205/45R16, 205/40R17

165/65R15

Range 3: (Outside diameter 600.6mm to 609.1mm)

175/70R14, 185/60R15, 195/50R16

195/65R14, 205/55R15

175/65R15

Range 4: (Outside diameter 611.4mm to 615mm)

185/70R14, 195/60R15, 205/50R16

Range 5: (Outside diameter 616.3mm to 621.5mm)

185/65R15, 195/55R16, 205/45R17

Range 6: (Outside diameter 627mm to 628.6mm)

195/70R14, 205/60R15

 

[Jeetesh]

Here are seven ranges of tyres. As you move up from Range 1 tyres to Range 7 tyres, the outside diameters of the tyres increases.

185/50R16 is a Range 2 tyre. I would suggest you go to a Range 3 tyre or a Range 4 tyre, rather than a smaller Range 1 tyre. The Fiat 500 uses Range 1 tyres, and the Audi A2 really does deserve bigger outside diameter tyres than that little car.

Range 1: (Outside diameter 581.9mm to 584.5mm)

175/65R14, 185/55R15, 195/45R16

Range 2: (Outside diameter 586.6mm to 591.4mm)

165/70R14, 175/60R15, 185/50R16

Range 3: (Outside diameter 590.9mm to 596.1mm)

185/65R14, 195/55R15, 205/45R16

Range 4: (Outside diameter 600.6mm to 603mm)

175/70R14, 185/60R15, 195/50R16

Range 5: (Outside diameter 599.9mm to 609.1mm)

195/65R14, 205/55R15, 215/45R16

Range 6: (Outside diameter 611.4mm to 615mm)

185/70R14, 195/60R15, 205/50R16

Range 7: (Outside diameter 616.3mm to 621.5mm)

185/65R15, 195/55R16, 205/45R17

Noted and thank you. Any idea of the impact on the speedo reading or is it something I’ll have to measure and compare once the tyre size is chosen.

 

[steve_c]

Any idea of the impact on the speedo reading or is it something I’ll have to measure and compare once the tyre size is chosen.

There's an almost infinite number of websites that provide such information. Here's one:

Tire Size Comparison

Tire size comparison the easy way. Use our tire size comparison calculator to compare diameter, width, sidewall, circumference and revolutions per mile.

tiresize.com

 

[carlston]

Noted and thank you. Any idea of the impact on the speedo reading or is it something I’ll have to measure and compare once the tyre size is chosen.

On standard tyres the Audi A2 will like most other cars over read by about 5%. So as you move up from Range 2 tyres to Range 7 tyres, your speedo will become more accurate. Someone did a GPS check on their Range 7 tyres and found that their speedo reading was now almost spot on.

 

[bretti_kivi]

... coming back to reality: Rules state over-reading is required by law from manufacturers at new. The consistency of the overread is based on a specific tyre size. Pretty much every car I've driven over the last x doesn't deal with pure percentages, there's a 5km/h difference, too, and it's this that you're eating when using oversize tyres. Your insurance company may also be interested in modifications from standard, which is what oversize tyres also are. I do believe at least certain motorway sections also now have zero tolerance "smart motorway" speed cameras.

Back to 1999 and A2 Development - specfically the A2, not just theoretical tyre sizing - the primary concern appears to have been comfort. Remember the elk-test scandal surrounding the A-Class? That's the reason all A2s got ESP as standard, notwithstanding the accidents at high speed with the Mk1 TT. That was originally released without a rear spoiler and in a unique setup, Audi actually retrofitted the spoiler and ESP to all TTs that had been produced up to a point.
With that in mind, let's go back to the A2: there was a test on the production line to make sure the ESP was working. It was seen to be vital that the safety of the car was not compromised in any way and could be seen to be better than the A-Class. At the time Audi was still the "poor relation" in Germany to BMW and M-B (seriously, I was living there at the time and it was just an upstart, relatively new to the game, with the 100 only being 15 years old or so... there was a lot of catching up still to be done). Spaceframe tech was in the A2, but it brought its own issues, mainly because the suspension tech that could easily be attached to the A8 can't be transferred, especially when your aim is the first four door 3l car. This was the *overrriding* aim and the point of a lot of the technology - adding lightness was the key and explains a lot of the compromises made for the hardcore 3l, with lighter seats, the fixed rear seat, 4 bolt magnesium rims, 15kg weight loss on the shell, no aircon, aluminium wishbones, the aluminium brake drums etc.
The full-fat A2 always was the "poorer" relation, it was a pleasant side-effect, where the 3L was supposed to be the hero car in this context. But the stiffness of the frame brings additional problems: the suspension cannot just pass the bumps on to the body for them to be absorbed; they must be dealt with completely by the suspension components. This is another reason why spring rates are actually quite important: the stiffness of the body means that the spring / damper combination must be able to deal with the wheel movement. With the additional requirement to limit body roll for ESP effectiveness - and especially the higher center of gravity for an OSS car - this should explain a lot of the decisions made to err on the stiff side of things with narrow tyres to enable slides rather than flips and to keep the body upright as long as possible. Narrower tyres will slide earlier and that allows ESP to still be able to do something rather than having to surrender to gravity.

Tyre and suspension choices were made in this context. The standard wheels are really quite light, those seven spoke ones. Partly to achieve 5L status (this had tax benefits at the time!), but also to keep it; with this in mind, all wheel / tyre combos were as narrow as possible but use (for the time!) large wheel sizes to a) reduce drag, b) keep consumption down and c) allow the brakes to fit. At the time the car was launched, the only other car using 175/60s was the Nissan Micra, if I remember correctly. I was looking for Winter tyres and annoyed that the selection was extremely limited.
The secondary issue in the mind of the engineers was the ride / handling compromise while retaining ESP functionality. Sport was *nowhere* in the design brief, with the FSI being intended to offer an Autobahn-capable A2 with high speed stability - hence the 42 litre tank, and larger spoiler - and Quattro GmbH added the bigger wheels in the home market.
Early A2s do not have 195/45R16 in their CoCs, nor is 205/40R17 there necessarily. 175/60 is there, as is 155/65R15 for M&S (the *only* size for snow chain work), 185/50R16 and possibly 165/65R15. 185/50R16 give a signficantly nicer ride than 195/45R16 (I remember driving a TDI back in 2005 with these tyres and being *very* pleasantly surprised how much better it rode than my own car) but it would seem that 195/45 was seen as being too sporty at the time and it simply wasn't homologated for production. Later cars seem to have it in their CoC, but there was lots of discussion on this on the German board about legality and its implications, with slowly many cars getting it entered into the paperwork. I suspect strongly that the original dimensions - 185/50R16 in this case - were chosen for the impact on ride and synergy with the rest of the suspension, bearing in mind the absolute requirement for ESP to work well and to minimize body roll while retaining some level of comfort.

I'll have to read the book - the A2 one from Klaus Dasing - in detail for more of this, but this should give you an idea. The moral of the story? I would stick to the correct sizing - 195/45R16 in this case, since 185/50 appears to have died out. Hakka Blues should be cheap in the UK and work well down to low temperatures; I have the original Hakka Blue on my summer rims. They're ancient and down to the markers at 3mm, but they have worked very well. If they were cheaper here, I would probably fit them again, but the Efficient Grips have better numbers and are cheaper, so there's no real contest. I also run 185/60R15 in the winter, though with spikes.

- Bret

 

[Jeetesh]

Hi Bret,

I remember reading around the events of the TT spoilergate, A-class elk test and the rationale for the A2 design/spec decisions. I even remember Audi’s growth from fledgling car maker to the powerhouse it is today. Your post has brought it all back to me and a fantastic summary to which I thank you.

Your post also reminded me why I didn’t spec OSS on my first 2001 A2 (weight penalty) and having had a Lotus Elise previously, light weight equaled good fuel economy and better power to weight. Indeed the 89k miles that I did in my first A2 was motorway miles and without the rear seats in place resulting in an average of 69mpg over those 89k miles. This engineering/design ethos is the reason I love the A2 and value the knowledge and experience on this forum.

Anyway back to topic, my head still says 195/45 R16 Goodyear EfficientGrip rather than 185/50 R16 Continental. While the Continental’s have marginally better economy (B) and wet weather (B) rating, the Goodyear are 4 decibels quieter (C and C respectively). Ultimately handling characteristics shouldn’t be far different.

No doubt other have thoughts too so interesting to continue reading people’s views which will help me make an informed decision.

 

[carlston]

Anyway back to topic, my head still says 195/45 R16 Goodyear EfficientGrip rather than 185/50 R16 Continental. While the Continental’s have marginally better economy (B) and wet weather (B) rating, the Goodyear are 4 decibels quieter (C and C respectively). Ultimately handling characteristics shouldn’t be far different.

Here's summer and winter tyres from Continental in size 185/50R16:

Continental ContiPremiumContact 2
185/50 R16 81H

EU Tyre Label
C B 69 dB

Continental WinterContact TS 860
185/50 R16 81H

EU Tyre Label
E B 71 dB