Advice required regarding safe starting of the engine

[ajsellors]

Hi,

I have an A2 1.6 FSI which has been stored in my garage for a number of years. Its my project car but for various reasons I have not been able to work on it for a while. This should hopefully change soon, but first I need to move the car out of the garage.

I purchased the car in December 2012 but as the Opensky leaks it went straight away under cover and hasn’t been driven since. The engine has been started 2 or 3 times since but not since 2014. The last oil change was in January 2012 and the cambelt was changed in April 2012. Since the cambelt was changed the car has covered about 1500 miles.

My question, is it safe to start the engine as it is to move the car or should anything be done before attempting to run the engine? I know that work will need to be done before the car can be used on the road, but I just need to shift the car at the moment. The engine was fine when I bought the car and I want to keep it that way!

Regards

Andrew

 

[depronman]

suggest rocking the crank with a socket on the pulley, it should turn over ok, then just go ahead and start it up. It may struggle as the petrol will have gone off and the FSI likes 98 ron, what is in the taken will be no were near that now.
The oil will need changing before you get it back on the road, but it should be OK just to start it up and move it. Also the brakes and clutch may well be stuck, brakes will come free with a liberal release of the clutch, but if the clutch as stuck to the fly wheel that is another story altogether. I have my finger X for you

 

[Vorsprung durch Technik]

In addition to above I'd suggest pulling a fuse if you can to stop it fueling and starting, if thats not doable pull the coils and turn the engine over on the starter to get some oil pressure in there. It wouldn't harm to undo the plugs and squirt some oil in each cylinder to lubricate the cylinder walls and rings as it will be dry as a belt and braces approach. The petrol would have gone off by now so if there's only a few litres in there i'd put some fresh in to help it run properly.

 

[ajsellors]

Thanks, I was thinking about pulling the fuel pump fuse before doing anything. I can't remember how much fuel is in the tank but I guess draining it is out of the question being petrol rather than diesel. I'll take the plugs out and put a bit of oil before trying anything. Just ordered the coil pack puller recommended here.

regards

Andrew

 

[spike]

A combination of the above suggestions -
Fully charge battery
Remove plugs
Rock the crank to check if the engine is free
Add a bit of oil to each cylinder
Hand turn engine over a couple of times to spread oil on bores
Refit plugs and crank on starter - without firing up if possible - till oil light goes out
Try a proper start.
If it won't fire up and stale fuel is suspected, add a wee drop of petrol through each plug hole

Cheers Spike

 

[Little Dog]

All good advice, my approach is Spike+. Done this many times with my Golf gti.
Disable ignition and fuel
Plugs out and lubricate bores
Drop oil out and put back in top to lubricate cam etc
If the car has been stood for several years I use fresh oil and a new pre filled filter (probably not possible with a newer car)
Turn by hand
Fit battery
Crank until oil pressure is achieved
Replace plugs, switch on fuel and ignition
Add fresh fuel
Start engine
Drive to MOT tester
Runs as well as it did when bought new 30 years ago.
I dumped a classic mini in the corner of the garden for 25 years. Had to rebuild the carb and fuel pump but that started and ran well using the above approach.

 

[Sarge]

All good info above, just check the Aux belt as it may have become perished and stuck on, could give you the 'seized' effect, also have a visual on the Cambelt whilst hand turning the crankshaft, as it turns to see if there is any undue cracking, if suspect, change cambelt kit and aux belts before trying to start it.

I would also recommend draining the oil and filling it back from top of engine.

Sarge

 

[ajsellors]

Hi,

thanks for all the good advice. The car needed to be out the garage for Wednesday so I tried to get it ready the day before....

The oil was drained easily. It looked like you would expect from 11 months of city driving (as I expect the car has had given its history and the date of the last change) - dirty but otherwise OK. There isn't any water contamination.

The top of the engine looks quite dry and as the oil was dirty I didn't want to pour it back in and went for the oil change.
The oil filter isn't easily accessible to say the least! I had to remove the oil filler and dipstick hoses to get access from below.
I have a classic oil filter removal clamp, last used many years go, but the filter refused to move. Eventually the filter housing got crushed slightly and my tool broke. The filter handn't unscrewed at all.

Needless to say that the car had to be pushed into place on Wednesday. At least the wheels turn freely.

Now armed with a very long 30mm ring spanner and a new oil filter removal tool with a strap that goes all the way round I have had another go.
Using the spanner I managed after a lot of effort to get the filter to move about a quater of a turn before the nut on the end of the filter gave way. That was just enough for the filter strap tool to manage to turn the filter the rest of the way.

Was it overtighted, just on there a long time or both? The last oil change was an Audi main dealer and the filter is a genuine Audi part.

Now the filter's off I'm concerned that with the very large force that was required to turn the filter, I have twisted the oil cooler round. It doesn't look straight and appears to be anti-clockwise off square. Is it meant to be square with the engine block?

Photo through a hole in the grille:

From inside the engine bay:

Does that look right or has it turned anti-clockwise as I have undone the filter?

If it has moved, is it just a question of undoing the nut I can see in the centre and turning it back?

regards

Andrew

 

[Sarge]

It's a case of the filter torqued way beyond the specified requirement that has led to this. Don't undo the centre nut, that won't allow you move the oil cooler, it is only to fix the metal 'tube' (the thread where the oil filter screws onto) at a certain length. Leave the all in place and thoroughly clean it then replace the oil filter and check for any leaks. Just make sure that the nut hasn't been worked loose with all the torque you've put in turning the oil filter.

Did you turn the engine by hand on the crankshaft nut? are the belts in good condition?

Sarge

 

[spike]

Not too scientific but the manual shows the cooler housing skewed anti clockwise so you should be OK.

As Sarge says, just check the centre nut is tight - torque is 25 Nm

Cheers Spike

 

[ajsellors]

Not too scientific but the manual shows the cooler housing skewed anti clockwise so you should be OK.

As Sarge says, just check the centre nut is tight - torque is 25 Nm

Cheers Spike

Thanks for the reassurance, it just looks odd with the internal plate square and the external case at an angle!

regards

Andrew

 

[ajsellors]

It's a case of the filter torqued way beyond the specified requirement that has led to this. Don't undo the centre nut, that won't allow you move the oil cooler, it is only to fix the metal 'tube' (the thread where the oil filter screws onto) at a certain length. Leave the all in place and thoroughly clean it then replace the oil filter and check for any leaks. Just make sure that the nut hasn't been worked loose with all the torque you've put in turning the oil filter.

Did you turn the engine by hand on the crankshaft nut? are the belts in good condition?

Sarge

As the engine is obviously dry I wasn't going to attempt to move it until I had filled it with fresh oil from the top and put some in the cylinders. That would only happen after the oil filter was changed....

I checked the part of the belt you can see with the top cover removed and the outside looks OK. You can't see much of the toothed side but the bit that can be viewed also looks OK. I will inspect it further as the engine is turned once the fresh oil is in.

I bought a Bosch oil filter from my local motor factors as I was doing all of this last minute but now after the problem getting the old one off I'm not going to fit it. It doesn't have the nut on the end as the Audi one does and that's quite useful for removal / fitting given the limited access so I will be getting the "proper" one today.

To prevent me overtightening the new filter, do anyone have any fitting advice. I can't see how I can easily get a torque wrench on to tighten to the specified amount. I seem to remember in the past in less complex times it was hand tight and then so many degrees when fitting a new filter.

Should I also replace the sump washer when chaning the oil? It seems to be captive on the bolt and looks like steel rather than the more usual copper crush washer?

regards

Andrew

 

[ajsellors]

Another question, I think the car's got the wrong coolant. The coolant level has gone down and now is below MIN and triggers the low coolant alarm on the DIS. The oil wasn't contaminated with water so is that just evaporation? There is coolant in the expansion tank but its below the MIN line.

The colour however is blue, I'm expecting the correct coolant to be pink.

I will be changing the water pump and death pipe with the timing belt before the car goes on the road but that may still be a while so would a coolant drain and refill with the correct stuff be advisable?

regards

Andrew

 

[Sarge]

Hand tightening is hit and miss really, I keep several torque wrenches one is as small as a half inch rachet and it is perfect for these uses.
As you can see previous person who fitted your old filter didn't use correct tightening procedures. Also it is always best to coat the new seal with a thin layer of fresh oil, I suspect that this wasn't done either hence the reason you'd have to put that much effort to turn it. I've seen this many times and this is why I always recommend proper tools and torques are used/applied.

As for the belts, (I know I've mentioned it before) you do need to check the aux belt as I have seen these perish and litterally stick solid onto the A/C compressor, together with alternator etc if engine not been turned for a long while, also the alternator can become seized or stiff enough and all combined can be enough stop the engine from turning on starter, leaving people thinking their engine is seized when it's not, I had this on two of my recent breakers.

Sarge

 

[Sarge]

Another question, I think the car's got the wrong coolant. The coolant level has gone down and now is below MIN and triggers the low coolant alarm on the DIS. The oil wasn't contaminated with water so is that just evaporation? There is coolant in the expansion tank but its below the MIN line.

The colour however is blue, I'm expecting the correct coolant to be pink.

I will be changing the water pump and death pipe with the timing belt before the car goes on the road but that may still be a while so would a coolant drain and refill with the correct stuff be advisable?

regards

Andrew

Yes coolant is G13 and is pink, someone used wrong coolant, flush it out and replace with correct G13 mix.

 

[ajsellors]

Hand tightening is hit and miss really, I keep several torque wrenches one is as small as a half inch rachet and it is perfect for these uses.
As you can see previous person who fitted your old filter didn't use correct tightening procedures. Also it is always best to coat the new seal with a thin layer of fresh oil, I suspect that this wasn't done either hence the reason you'd have to put that much effort to turn it. I've seen this many times and this is why I always recommend proper tools and torques are used/applied.

As for the belts, (I know I've mentioned it before) you do need to check the aux belt as I have seen these perish and litterally stick solid onto the A/C compressor, together with alternator etc, also the alternator can become seized or stiff enough and all combined can be enough stop the engine from turning on starter. I had this on two of my recent breakers.

Sarge

Hi,

yes, the rubber squealed all the way round as it turned so the seal was definitely dry.

Visually the aux belt looks OK but I will check it as well when attempting to turn the engine.

I have a selection of different sized torque wrenches for sockets but it wasn't looking like I would be able to get any on the end due to the limited clearance. I will check again and see and see if I can find a low profile 30mm socket that might work. I also have some opened ended torque spanners but wasn't expecting them to work but perhaps it would, the correct torque isn't what was required to remove!

regards

Andrew

 

[Sarge]

Oh Andrew, also when you do your coolant circuit overhaul, make you double check all the little 'Y' pieces in the circuit and the big thermostat housing is becoming a bit more of a problem on the FSi recently as it fractures at the bottom where it mates to the cylinder head causing leaking.

 

[ajsellors]

Hi,

Using the excellent advice given above, I have successfully fired up the FSI.

The engine has new oil, filled from the top and a new filter.

With the plugs removed, I added a bit of oil to each cylinder and turned over the engine a few times using a ring spanner on the crank pulley bolt
head. It wasn’t noticeably stuck when initially moved.

With the plugs still out and the fuel pump and ignition fuses removed I cranked the engine with the starter to distribute the oil and ensure there wasn’t excessive oil in the cylinders before running.

New plugs and coil packs were then fitted and the fuses replaced.

The first start took a few seconds for the fuel to reach the engine but subsequent starts are instant.

I have run the engine until it reached the operating temperature and the radiator was hot.


Some observations:

With the plugs removed, had a look down the spark plug hole with an endoscope camera. I wanted to see if I could check the condition of the cylinders, see if anything had gone rusty etc. Admittedly my camera from LIDL isn’t that great but I couldn’t really see much at all, even when turning the engine so that the piston was at BDC. The most I managed to see looked like a valve head, which I can only assume was a reflection from the top of the piston.

Does anyone know a way of checking the conditions of the cylinders with the head in place? Note, I will be doing a compression test in due cause.


When I cranked the engine after oiling with the plugs removed, one cylinder, number 2, sprayed a light brown liquid out of the hole as the engine turned over. The other 3 cylinders did not. This concerned me as I normally associate a brown liquid with rusty water. What concerned me more was that further cranking of the engine didn’t seem to diminish the spray. A stuck a sheet of paper towel into the sparkplug hole to capture what it was and try and identify it but that wasn’t really conclusive. The liquid looked like it was thin, but it could have been the oil (which is brown). I certainly hope so! After about 10 – 15 seconds of cranking the amount of spray had diminished a bit but was still there. I was worried about cranking the engine too much without fuel so I gave up then and put the plugs in.


When the engine runs, it doesn’t run as “smooth” as I would have expected, or remember, or indeed as my 1.4 petrol. The idle speed is right and even, but there is more vibration from the engine than I would be expecting to feel inside the car and this can also be seen on the engine. When idling, the engine can be seen to rock backwards and forwards with the firing of the cylinders. The movement is small but noticeable. It is this which is accounting for the vibration and comparing with my 1.4, that moves less, sounds and feels a lot smoother.

Has something been damaged in the engine as a result of it standing idle, or is this as a result of the old lower octane fuel? The last time the engine was run was in 2014 and I did notice that the engine sounded less smooth than the previous time it was fired up in 2013.
Could old fuel result in the engine running rough?

What can I do about the old fuel? The level in the tank is just over a quarter. I don’t want to just add extra new fuel to the tank as that will just give be a larger quantity of still bad fuel. Can I drain the bad fuel off safely and if so, what do I do with it (other than run it in my lawnmower!)

Any advice would be appreciated.

Warm regards

Andrew

 

[Andrew]

For peace of mind sake, you could remove the coils and plugs again to inspect if no 2 cylinder is clear under a short cranking.

Andy

 

[ajsellors]

Yesterday I changed the fuel in the tank for fresh Super Unleaded.

I bought this for the intention of using it to pump out the old fuel through the filler pipe.

Unfortunately, no matter how far down the pipe I pushed the inlet hose, it wasn't enough to reach the fuel and I was only pumping air.
The thank was just over 1/4 full.

Although the fuel pump can be removed to access the tank, I don't have the special tool to unscrew the nut or a replacement for the one use seal.

Instead, I used the fuel pump itself to empty the tank. That is after all what its designed to do!

I unclipped the pipe on the pump outlet and attached the hose from the hand pump kit was a good fit.

I ran the pump directly from the car battery and extracted 10L of old fuel into my Jerry Can.
I then added 5L of fresh fuel.

What was interesting was that the old and new fuels are completely different colours. The old fuel is yellow where as the new fuel is a blue / green colour!

Does anyone know the significance of this if there is one?

The result of this is that the engine now sounds better and revs easily. The vibration I noticed earlier however is still there, although was slightly reduced when the engine had reached temperature and I had revved it a bit.

Now that I can run the engine, the next task is to flush out the wrong coolant and replace.

What am I going to do with 10L of old fuel? When I wrote the last post I had the idea of using it for the lawnmower so yesterday I cut the grass!