best suspension ?
- Thread starter remo
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fbi
Member
Hi Richard,
I agree I have changed dampers AND springs at the same time, so unfortunately I cannot comment on the FSD or springs alone.
Here's the steps that I've done :
a) 1.4i bog standard (175/60-15) : comfy but not controlled, bad grip
b) same but with 17" TT rims (205/40-15) : grippy but "harsh" (could feel road surface), not very controlled (soft suspension). Heavy wheels (some slight effect on acceleration)
c) 1.4i, 17" wheels, FSD, Weitec -30/00 : firm and controlled ride. Not as comfy as I expected (as FSD's are said to be "magical", Dr Jeckyll & Mr Hyde...) but rather satisfied, though, as it suits my driving style.
d) 1.6 FSI, 17" wheels, FSD, Weitec -30/00 (the same as above, so for lighter front axle) : firm and rather controlled, but bouncy on some bumps (often or motorway, for example). Compared to the above (1.4i), this is a downgrade.
My winter tyres have just arrived (Conti TS830 195/55-15), I'm looking forward to have them fitted and see how the suspension/handling is affected by lighter rims + tyres. But I'm sure the "under-sprung" effect will still be present.
The question remains : refit std FSI springs (not sport) or other proper sport lowering springs (for FSI/TDI) ?
Note that I'm not after the sportier setup possible, the A2 is a "daily" driver. I still have the MGTF that I can "trash" if I want. RWD is more fun ...
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bretti_kivi
Member
short version: ABT have a good rep on the german forum, H&R have a crap one.
16x6 + 185/50R16 weighs (according to this thread http://www.a2-freun.de/forum/showthread.php?t=19403) 16.5kg or so.
205/40R17s should hit around 9kg, so Superleggeras are around the same weight but with the extra width. That's pretty impressive.
Bret
16x6 + 185/50R16 weighs (according to this thread http://www.a2-freun.de/forum/showthread.php?t=19403) 16.5kg or so.
205/40R17s should hit around 9kg, so Superleggeras are around the same weight but with the extra width. That's pretty impressive.
Bret
Nice to see someone in Belgium has a decent car with an MG TF! What ever the merits of Audi engineers are and negative perceptions of MG Rover their chassis engineers were amongst the best in the business and would have sorted out the a2..... Autocar still highly rate the transformation they made turning the 25/45/75 into real drivers cars with the ZR/ZS/ZT respectively. BMW now use the same roads (in Wales) that MGR used to use to set up their suspensions for UK spec cars. Perhaps audi should have recruited some former MGR staff....
Personally I think all this tinkering with FSD's etc is not really getting to the problem which i suspct relates to more fundamental issues of the chassis/suspension design and perhaps items such as specification of bush's etc
Personally I think all this tinkering with FSD's etc is not really getting to the problem which i suspct relates to more fundamental issues of the chassis/suspension design and perhaps items such as specification of bush's etc
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KneesUp
A2OC Donor
Thank you all for the comments.
FBI: your breakdown is interesting but there are so many variables... I strongly feel that the place to start is to put on the lightest wheels you can possibly afford with really good quality tyres (my 205 Fuldas aren't good enough but they came with the wheels). Reducing unsprung weight makes a huge difference to braking and suspension control. Your TT wheel and tyre combination would have been very compromising, I feel.
My knowledge of suspension systems isn't good enough to know to what extent rebound is controlled by the pressurization of the shock absorbers with FSDs and to what extent it can be minimalized by the spring choice. Or even the fitting or a rear ARB. I suspect the latter won't do much. And I wonder if ABT front springs will be significantly better than my Weitecs. They are, of course, a very different design...
Bret: your findings and mine are the same. I did a lot of wheel and tyre weight calculations before choosing the combination I did. Not only is there no appreciable weight increase with my OZ combo (they are actually a little lighter) and, with 205/50s I have a larger air cushion on the rim than the original 185s. In short, the rider is better, despite the short tyre walls, and the steering lovely. I can't recommend them strongly enough.
And thank you for the H&R comments.
My next course of action will be to fit front ABT springs and possibly a rear ARB. Assuming I can justify the expense. It all seems a bit mad, but having gone this far...
FBI: your breakdown is interesting but there are so many variables... I strongly feel that the place to start is to put on the lightest wheels you can possibly afford with really good quality tyres (my 205 Fuldas aren't good enough but they came with the wheels). Reducing unsprung weight makes a huge difference to braking and suspension control. Your TT wheel and tyre combination would have been very compromising, I feel.
My knowledge of suspension systems isn't good enough to know to what extent rebound is controlled by the pressurization of the shock absorbers with FSDs and to what extent it can be minimalized by the spring choice. Or even the fitting or a rear ARB. I suspect the latter won't do much. And I wonder if ABT front springs will be significantly better than my Weitecs. They are, of course, a very different design...
Bret: your findings and mine are the same. I did a lot of wheel and tyre weight calculations before choosing the combination I did. Not only is there no appreciable weight increase with my OZ combo (they are actually a little lighter) and, with 205/50s I have a larger air cushion on the rim than the original 185s. In short, the rider is better, despite the short tyre walls, and the steering lovely. I can't recommend them strongly enough.
And thank you for the H&R comments.
My next course of action will be to fit front ABT springs and possibly a rear ARB. Assuming I can justify the expense. It all seems a bit mad, but having gone this far...
fbi
Member
The spring choice is primordial ! The pressurization of the dampers is negligible in that role. In my case, a non linear spring may be interresting to reduce the bumpiness, as it would reduce travel, thus oscillations.
For people riding moutainbikes and setting up their shocks and forks, the spring rate is the air pressure (in the positive chamber) and the damping rate is the rebound (and derivates). The air presure has to be fine tuned regarding the rider weight, so that the shock performs well over its whole travel. The same applies to shocks with coils springs instead of air springs (coils springs can be pre-compressed)
Indeed, ARB has to do with body roll (and handling issues related to body roll, like understeer), but a stiffer ARB has the same effect as a stiffer spring. In my case, I don't feel the need of a stiffer front ARB, in terms of body roll. And I would need to test drive an A2 with a rear ARB fitted to decide if that's a worthwile addition...
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Colin Shurvell
Member
Has anyone out there tried Munro reflex ? Munro say that they are a vast improvement over the standard shocks !!! and cost about half Fsd's infact they seem to be cheaper than standard Munro's? Im not looking for a sportier drive, just a bit more comfort in my old age. Hoping for a reply. Cheers Colin
AJP
Member
Had FSD's installed a week ago - what a difference! (ordered from Larkspeed)
- Much better over speedbumps, I can now drive over them in 3rd gear instead of having to slow down and change down to 2nd gear to prevent bottoming
- Feels more planted on bouncy and bumpy roads
- Less body roll when braking and cornering
- Sits a little bit higher front and rear, but no noticeable "pooping elk" appearance. ( I'm using standard springs). Higher ground clearance is just better during winter...
- Overall it feels like a "normal" car now, not crashy and fragile like before. I think comfort has increased further after a week of riding. Still not as comfortable with 185/50 tires as my Roomster with 205/45 tires though...
Here's a side profile shot after FSD installation:
- Much better over speedbumps, I can now drive over them in 3rd gear instead of having to slow down and change down to 2nd gear to prevent bottoming
- Feels more planted on bouncy and bumpy roads
- Less body roll when braking and cornering
- Sits a little bit higher front and rear, but no noticeable "pooping elk" appearance. ( I'm using standard springs). Higher ground clearance is just better during winter...
- Overall it feels like a "normal" car now, not crashy and fragile like before. I think comfort has increased further after a week of riding. Still not as comfortable with 185/50 tires as my Roomster with 205/45 tires though...
Here's a side profile shot after FSD installation:
john-wingnut
Active Member
I had exactly the same problem with FSD's, they were bouncy and uncontrolled. Car felt like it was driving itself at the front.
So I took mine off and sold them.
I have now had Bilstein B8's with FK springs on it for over a year now and they are great. Much better handling IMHO and a sportier setup. You dont get any front end bouncing and the steering is sharp.
I do have reasonably lite wheels, and also the fact that the B8's have the inverted damper design, shaves more weight off the unsprung total weight
John
So I took mine off and sold them.
I have now had Bilstein B8's with FK springs on it for over a year now and they are great. Much better handling IMHO and a sportier setup. You dont get any front end bouncing and the steering is sharp.
I do have reasonably lite wheels, and also the fact that the B8's have the inverted damper design, shaves more weight off the unsprung total weight
John
AJP
Member
FSD's definitely don't make the setup sportier at all... just more comfortable. The car still wanders a bit and there is a feeling of lateral movement in the chassis when riding on grooved roads, but I guess that is because of 120K miles and 10-year old bushings everywhere...
I don't have problems with the overall feel that a small, tall and lightweight cars generally have, otherwise I wouldn't be driving an A2...
I don't have problems with the overall feel that a small, tall and lightweight cars generally have, otherwise I wouldn't be driving an A2...
humps
A2OC Donor
Hi John, I'm interested in alternatives now. Recently I put the Eibach pro kit springs on (with my FSD) and my word that is harsh! Very punishing over small bumps on the road. But handling is great, cornering is very sharp. But I really have to take them off and at least put the standard OE springs back on for comfort. So while they are off, I wonder if B8's will give even better damping for comfort? I won't worry too much about handling on the A2 anymore, I'll get another car for that purpose.
john-wingnut
Active Member
Comfort wise I am happy with them. I had a friend in the back the other week and he was not a happy bunny over bumps lol, but there were four of us in the car, and the rear was probably bump stopping out TBH.
Bear in mind the B8's can only be used on -30 or more springs. If you are keeping standard springs, you need to get B6's humps!! These have the standard length damping rods, where as B8's have the shortened ones to allow for the -30 or more drop without compromising on the damping rate, as in the damper rod would start at the beginning of its stroke at the dropper height, where as if you do the same on B6's the rod is already partially through its stroke.
John
Bear in mind the B8's can only be used on -30 or more springs. If you are keeping standard springs, you need to get B6's humps!! These have the standard length damping rods, where as B8's have the shortened ones to allow for the -30 or more drop without compromising on the damping rate, as in the damper rod would start at the beginning of its stroke at the dropper height, where as if you do the same on B6's the rod is already partially through its stroke.
John
Merlin3046
Member
I'm coming late to this thread, but having read through most of it, I have to confess I'm little the wiser. My first job out of university was ride and handling development at BL Cars in Canley. I had the privilege of working on the Rover SD1 Vitesse and also the Triumph Acclaim. And then I moved away from the motor industry into other fields of endeavour, so my knowledge is approaching 40 years old, and likely to be very out of date.
I've only had my A2 (TDi 90 on a 54 plate with about every toy known to Audi) for a few months now, and there are two things about the ride that jump out at me. First, there seems to be far too little wheel travel, which means the springs have to be very stiff, and at which point the dampers struggle to keep the whole show under control. This is the problem that the Acclaim had; Honda had designed in a travel that wasn't a whole lot more than the original Mini. Second is the bushings are far too stiff, so you can tell if a coin is heads-up when you run over it.
Has anyone tried the Colin Chapman approach to the A2's ride and handling? Long travel, low rate springs tied down with very effective damping? Nowadays you can also build in long-travel progressive bump-stops that don't kick in only at the last few mm of travel. I've not studied the volume of the wheel arches in detail, but adding travel after the design stage of a car's life is often tricky, as there just isn't room for wheels to move further. Also, sourcing long travel low rate springs is going to be difficult; you're unlikely to be able to nick them off e.g. a Fabia or Polo because those cars weigh so much more so the springs are likely to be stiffer even if they do offer a longer stroke.
All of this falls squarely under the heading of "radical" rather than "tinkering", but choosing a lowered ride height (with the resultant reduction in wheel travel) in the search for better ride just seems all wrong to me.
The secondary ride (crashiness) appears easier to fix. At a minimum you could drill some holes in the bush at the rear of the front suspension arm (possible to machine rubber if it's just come out of the freezer) or find some friendly rubber manufacturer who can make some with a lower Shore hardness. I've not looked at the strut top mount in detail, but it would be interesting to know if you could get more compliance into that.
I still have some friends in the motor industry so I'm inclined to see if I can raise some enthusiasm for a bit of Friday afternoon skunk works to have the true professionals have a look at how to improve things. As you can probably tell, my preference is very much for a good ride (no sniggering now) rather than Mk1 Mini handling (I'm one of the very few people in the world who thinks Hydroelastic was a really good idea. Now there's a thought). I think my backside had it's calibration set by our much loved and missed Citroen CX Familiale; anything after that feels crude and harsh.
If anyone's has any thoughts along these lines, I'd be interested to hear them. I'd really like to get the A2 riding nicely as that really is its weak point and spoils an otherwise lovely little car.
I've only had my A2 (TDi 90 on a 54 plate with about every toy known to Audi) for a few months now, and there are two things about the ride that jump out at me. First, there seems to be far too little wheel travel, which means the springs have to be very stiff, and at which point the dampers struggle to keep the whole show under control. This is the problem that the Acclaim had; Honda had designed in a travel that wasn't a whole lot more than the original Mini. Second is the bushings are far too stiff, so you can tell if a coin is heads-up when you run over it.
Has anyone tried the Colin Chapman approach to the A2's ride and handling? Long travel, low rate springs tied down with very effective damping? Nowadays you can also build in long-travel progressive bump-stops that don't kick in only at the last few mm of travel. I've not studied the volume of the wheel arches in detail, but adding travel after the design stage of a car's life is often tricky, as there just isn't room for wheels to move further. Also, sourcing long travel low rate springs is going to be difficult; you're unlikely to be able to nick them off e.g. a Fabia or Polo because those cars weigh so much more so the springs are likely to be stiffer even if they do offer a longer stroke.
All of this falls squarely under the heading of "radical" rather than "tinkering", but choosing a lowered ride height (with the resultant reduction in wheel travel) in the search for better ride just seems all wrong to me.
The secondary ride (crashiness) appears easier to fix. At a minimum you could drill some holes in the bush at the rear of the front suspension arm (possible to machine rubber if it's just come out of the freezer) or find some friendly rubber manufacturer who can make some with a lower Shore hardness. I've not looked at the strut top mount in detail, but it would be interesting to know if you could get more compliance into that.
I still have some friends in the motor industry so I'm inclined to see if I can raise some enthusiasm for a bit of Friday afternoon skunk works to have the true professionals have a look at how to improve things. As you can probably tell, my preference is very much for a good ride (no sniggering now) rather than Mk1 Mini handling (I'm one of the very few people in the world who thinks Hydroelastic was a really good idea. Now there's a thought). I think my backside had it's calibration set by our much loved and missed Citroen CX Familiale; anything after that feels crude and harsh.
If anyone's has any thoughts along these lines, I'd be interested to hear them. I'd really like to get the A2 riding nicely as that really is its weak point and spoils an otherwise lovely little car.
Your musings are very, very similar to mine. I'd like to know what fouls first on the A2 front suspension (in other words, what sets the limit on suspension travel?). I've only had mine a month or two, but the horrible metallic thump from hitting potholes etc sends a shudder up my spine. Literally. I certainly have no intention of going anywhere near a setup with reduced ride height. I know Audi aren't renowned for their handling nous but the A2 doesn't feel like it spent much time in their NVH department!
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Vorsprung durch Technik
A2OC Donor
That's a great post Merlin3046. Totally get what your talking about but and as you may well be aware with your background todays suspensions are just not designed properly as it's far cheaper for manufacturers to just use bits from the parts bin. Years ago they did make cars that were very compliant.I can think of my fathers old Citroen GSA Club and we had a Peugeot 504 in Africa i'm talking late 79-82 that was such a smooth ride on Italian "Gufanti" built roads. Personally i love the A2 for it's go-cart handling, ours is a sport, but have to agree if we hit a pothole it transmits such a thump it's just not acceptable really! You may remember the Elk Test the famous test that the Mercedes A class when first released to the public miserably failed and keeled over. I think that's part of the reason for Audi choosing a hard suspension as the A2 does sit quite high up therefore increasing the centre of gravity height.
Steedman
Member
Great post, Merlin3046. I hope you are able to devote some time to solving this particular A2 puzzle!
I have a 2004 model, standard suspension and the lightweight 16" 5-spoke star design wheels (according to the price list, these add no weight over the standard SE wheels). The car has only done 40k miles, so the suspension should still be in good shape.
As it is, I don't find the car to be too bad, however I have bought a set of 15"pepperpot wheels and will be interested to see what difference they and a set of new tyres will make. Further improvements are always welcome, so I am looking forward to you result of your skunk works!!
I have a 2004 model, standard suspension and the lightweight 16" 5-spoke star design wheels (according to the price list, these add no weight over the standard SE wheels). The car has only done 40k miles, so the suspension should still be in good shape.
As it is, I don't find the car to be too bad, however I have bought a set of 15"pepperpot wheels and will be interested to see what difference they and a set of new tyres will make. Further improvements are always welcome, so I am looking forward to you result of your skunk works!!
fbi
Member
The A2 is not as light as it is often claimed. At least the TDI and FSI.
Incidentally, I drove a little my FSI with springs from a 1.4 petrol. There's a huge difference, these are really softer (there is close from 100kg difference between the weight of 1.4 and 1.6 petrol engines)
So, since you have a TDI, you have a wide range of softer springs to choose from A2's, Polo's and Fabia's with aluminum engines (petrol).
Provided that you are after some lowering, because softer springs + higher weight = bigger height drop. Otherwise, you'll need custom springs that are longer at rest state.
Incidentally, I drove a little my FSI with springs from a 1.4 petrol. There's a huge difference, these are really softer (there is close from 100kg difference between the weight of 1.4 and 1.6 petrol engines)
So, since you have a TDI, you have a wide range of softer springs to choose from A2's, Polo's and Fabia's with aluminum engines (petrol).
Provided that you are after some lowering, because softer springs + higher weight = bigger height drop. Otherwise, you'll need custom springs that are longer at rest state.