Do you want an electric A2?

[dieselfan]

With current battery technology it is simply impossible to pack the 45 kWh needed for a 200 miles range in an A2 (while still allowing a driver and 3 passengers in the car).

Is that due to weight or available space?

Thanks to all for the very interesting postings ?

Cheers
dieselfan

 

[Peter]

I'd say primarily weight (350...400 kgs) and consequently weight distribution (front/rear). Space in the engine department does not allow for a large battery box in the front.
The electric motor is rather compact, but you need the motor controller, 12V battery, cabin heater, electric brake booster, electric airco pump, (fast) charger, etc to go somewhere. Quite a puzzle assuming the ABS-pump and power steering remain in place.

 

[4markowen]

LG 4P3S Module 2.6KWh

zero-ev.co.uk

These are the cells I'd ideally like to tetris into the A2

16 would get you 41.6kWh, 205kg (less battery box weight/mountings), and cost £8320

Some back of fag packet calculations I reckon you could fit 8 under the rear seat, maybe under the rear boot floor, but then you're putting weight outside of the axles. There's a slight offset of the rear suspension to the chassis cross member otherwise you'd have some nice clean spaces.

Whether 8 under the bonnet is possible is the bigger challenge. In theory, not practice until you do some CAD (cardboard aided design) with the fuel tank out, engine out, etc. Then it's a question of voltages being delivered.

The Power Steering and ABS are a PITA, but I'll let the engineers off

The latest Fiat 500e base model has only about 20kWh capacity, so a perfectly good city runabout is doable for half those figures above. Don't get me started on the Honda E's range.

Toyota / Denso do an electric AC compressor I believe. Vacuum pump use a 2nd hand A4 one but need a reservoir for it. HV junction box can go in footwell space, probably mimic the ECU from there too getting th CANBUS messaging you need.

There's not an ideal solution for the heater, but some DIY options are about, not OEM.

It's still early days for lower end conversions, the whole Openinverter lot are doing the discovery work at the moment, and hobbyists and the occasional garage owner/mechanics are reading the writing for ICE engines and doing their conversion courses.

Higher end conversions, they have the higher end prices and labour costs associated.

It's getting there.

 

[Peter]

Interesting modules! Do they have internal BMS for the 12 cells? BMS over the 16 units will not be standard. Can they be installed on their side (15 cm height is more practical than 11 cm)? Do they require cooling?

My battery boxes are:
- under rear seats: 105 cm by 25 cm and 23 cm deep (holding 6 blocks of 4 cells each 6 x 15 cm and 20 cm high)
- under boot floor: 105 cm by 60 cm and 23 cm deep (holding 6 blocks of 5 cells and 8 blocks of 4 cells)
My cells are 2.3 kg each x 86 = 198 kg.
My main contactors/fuses (160 Amps) and precharging button are in the passager's footwell (right) - the CAN-emulator is in the driver's footwell (left)

If the box under the rear seats can be made slightly bigger 108 by 30 cm you could fit 6 units there assuming air cooling is sufficient. Behind the axle a box 108 by 61 cm would accomodate 12 units (single layer, 11 cm high). Your battery boxes would only have to be 15 cm deep.
Fitting one or two of these large blocks under the hood will be difficult and lead to lots of extra (high voltage, BMS) cabling. Let alone cooling if required.

The total voltage (170 Volts) is quite nice (if you can find a suitable motor).

 

[4markowen]

Most LG cells like this generate heat at the bottom of the cell, you should be able to get away with passive cooling by using a heatsink mounting plate, but that takes up more room, say 5mm of alu plate and obviously the additional weight of that.

These style cells are in packs that provide active cooling, and heating to manage battery performance. But car manufacturers have warrenties to worry about, something that'll apply when conversions get more common.

BMS for cells, not sure, the BMW cells different/similar to this are designed to have the BMS module either on top or on the end, obviously adjusting the dimensions. I think Zero EV get the cells from the OEM battery manufacturer. But I think theyre the same cells as in the iPace, so not sure.

They use them in the MX5 conversion discussed, so I'll have a look at the video when I get the chance to see about a BMS for them.

Given the height I was thinking of stacking them under the rear seat, 2x2 in two layers, but the cooling was the issue. Was thinking of getting flat aluminium tube, but joining them is a bit beyond my skill, so an additional cost to get a decent local manufacturer to have a go.

 

[55Stars]

There is a tonne of space under the front seats - we are putting 12 Leaf cells in there. Then 10 under the rear seat and then the last two somewhere else...

 

[gills]

There is a tonne of space under the front seats - we are putting 12 Leaf cells in there. Then 10 under the rear seat and then the last two somewhere else...

Keeping that much of the weight central should help the dynamics of the finished car.

 

[stevec]

Hi all.
Now a definate date has been released for the death of new petrol and diesel cars for sale in uk. Expect all car manufacturers to divert their R and D technologies to the following criteria.
A) getting battery cell size, weight down with storage and current capacity up. (less weight=more mpg)
B) electic motor size reduction and power up. Again less weight etc.
C) Car insulation design, against and for heat delivery. Double glazed windows, better but lighter car insulation designed specifically to keep heat in etc.
Expect advances in all these areas soon, so personally i won't be looking at an electric conversion till all these issues have been addressed.
The weight figures for batteries, motor, charge pack heater etc that have been qouted, will add more weight to the A2 than the equipment you will be removing. So IMO it will be best to wait and enjoy the A2 as is till then.
Steve

 

[Alan_uk]

re batteries, I stumbled across this article published today.

VW-backed QuantumScape says its solid-state batteries will enable EVs to travel farther and charge faster

The batteries will appear first in Volkswagen vehicles in 2024.

www.theverge.com

After nearly a decade in operation, QuantumScape, a San Jose-based startup backed by Volkswagen and Bill Gates, has announced it has developed a "dry" lithium battery that should:

• enabling electric vehicles that can travel 80 percent further than an electric vehicle with a traditional battery.
• retain more than 80 percent of their capacity after 800 charging cycles.
• non-combustible.
• work at low temperature down to -30C
• have volumetric energy density of more than 1,000 watt-hours per liter at the cell level, which is nearly double the density of top-rate commercial lithium-ion packs.

Don't hold your breath, these batteries wont be ready to go into production until 2024 (and most technology companies are too bullish when it comes to timescales). Still, sounds a promising breakthrough.

 

[Swalsey]

The most carbon neutral and cost effective way of motoring is to keep these A2’s on the road for as long as possible. Who doesn’t like a car that has little/no depreciation, peanuts to run and will probably last another 25 years, far better that than forking out £15k+ for a decent conversion or buying an electric car for £20k+ that’ll probably only last 10 years before the batteries are shot.

this appears to be a common misconception; depending on the emissions of the car and the emissions from a new BEV being produced, and many other factors (miles per annum, primary energy source type) the payback period before the new electric car will REDUCE overall emissions is 3-5 years. Keeping a dirty diesel on the road for 20 years is not better for climate change than replacing it with an i3.

 

[maxufeiss]

But there's another misconception. Driving 2-3 tonne luxury EV in many countries is still more dirty than driving old small diesel (CO2 wise).
Even more so in colder countries.
Me driving my 3L, in winter, in Estonia today, should have large spanner resting on passenger seat (for a friendly chat). Just in case i see some dirty Model S, Audi or another large electric SUV.

So some calculus i do must.
My average fuel usage is at 3,53l of dirty diesel per 100km.
In video the yearly distance is set at 19312km
So i would burn 681,7 liters of this dirty diesel to reach that distance.
Burning this dinosaur juice ,i would produce 1,84t of CO2 (around 2,7kg per liter).
That is lower than national average for all electric cars in US, mentioned in that video at 2,02t of CO2.

So if we'd swap all electric cars in US to old dirty diesel A2 3L, and they would achieve same average fuel consumption, then at the moment we'd be making world a favor?
So even in average, 3L is more C02 efficient than electric (in US), no way in hell swapping it to large electric SUV (that still needs to be produced) is good for environment at the moment.
That's why i do not understand forcing electric without considering location and car emissions. Banning small diesel where it is better than electric etc...

Of course these calculations will change depending on location and cars. More problematic is obsession with large SUV-s etc. Electric or not.
I do understand that in some places electric is much better than average old diesel. But some do not understand that in some places old diesel is still better than electric.

In my country, even i3 is probably still worse than 3L. Have no actual numbers for that of course, and it will change someday.

If we take Spritmonitor info on co2, A2 3L stands at 95g/km. In Germany average daily distance is around 14k km if i'm not very off.
i3 stands at 74g/km. So 1,33t of co2 a year difference, don't know any numbers, but probably around 7-10 years to offset it's making co2 debt.
If battery will last at least 15 years, i'd consider it making co2 profit in around 12+ years or so.
That is already almost acceptable in long term, but not yet enough to force out very efficient diesel like 3L.

Tesla Model S stand worse than 3L in Spritmonitor calculation, so it should be banned in Germany for having worse emissions than 20 year old dirty diesel, together with other large electric SUV-s

Got a little long and maybe off somewhere, but that's my 3Liters
World is not that black and white as politics make it to be. (In some places there should be push to make brand spanking new diesel A2 2L , without many electronics that add weight and pushed to pollute environment like tire pressure monitors etc etc)

 

[Erlingtheelder]

But there's another misconception. Driving 2-3 tonne luxury EV in many countries is still more dirty than driving old small diesel (CO2 wise).
Even more so in colder countries.
Me driving my 3L, in winter, in Estonia today, should have large spanner resting on passenger seat (for a friendly chat). Just in case i see some dirty Model S, Audi or another large electric SUV.

So some calculus i do must.
My average fuel usage is at 3,53l of dirty diesel per 100km.
In video the yearly distance is set at 19312km
So i would burn 681,7 liters of this dirty diesel to reach that distance.
Burning this dinosaur juice ,i would produce 1,84t of CO2 (around 2,7kg per liter).
That is lower than national average for all electric cars in US, mentioned in that video at 2,02t of CO2.

So if we'd swap all electric cars in US to old dirty diesel A2 3L, and they would achieve same average fuel consumption, then at the moment we'd be making world a favor?
So even in average, 3L is more C02 efficient than electric (in US), no way in hell swapping it to large electric SUV (that still needs to be produced) is good for environment at the moment.
That's why i do not understand forcing electric without considering location and car emissions. Banning small diesel where it is better than electric etc...

Of course these calculations will change depending on location and cars. More problematic is obsession with large SUV-s etc. Electric or not.
I do understand that in some places electric is much better than average old diesel. But some do not understand that in some places old diesel is still better than electric.

In my country, even i3 is probably still worse than 3L. Have no actual numbers for that of course, and it will change someday.

If we take Spritmonitor info on co2, A2 3L stands at 95g/km. In Germany average daily distance is around 14k km if i'm not very off.
i3 stands at 74g/km. So 1,33t of co2 a year difference, don't know any numbers, but probably around 7-10 years to offset it's making co2 debt.
If battery will last at least 15 years, i'd consider it making co2 profit in around 12+ years or so.
That is already almost acceptable in long term, but not yet enough to force out very efficient diesel like 3L.

Tesla Model S stand worse than 3L in Spritmonitor calculation, so it should be banned in Germany for having worse emissions than 20 year old dirty diesel, together with other large electric SUV-s

Got a little long and maybe off somewhere, but that's my 3Liters
World is not that black and white as politics make it to be. (In some places there should be push to make brand spanking new diesel A2 2L , without many electronics that add weight and pushed to pollute environment like tire pressure monitors etc etc)

Only slight issue with this argument is that 3L’s are a scare and finite resource making them a flawed solution to the problem sadly.

 

[Jeetesh]

this appears to be a common misconception; depending on the emissions of the car and the emissions from a new BEV being produced, and many other factors (miles per annum, primary energy source type) the payback period before the new electric car will REDUCE overall emissions is 3-5 years. Keeping a dirty diesel on the road for 20 years is not better for climate change than replacing it with an i3.

I’m not disputing the fact that electric cars produce less CO2 when comparing A-B driving or the carbon impact of manufacture and disposal of both electric and ICE cars. I’m also not disputing the effects of NOx emissions which are generally higher in diesel which causes respiratory problems.

My cars are an A2 FSI and a super clean merc e-class diesel (OM654). My merc’s diesel engine is probably the cleanest on sale, Google the engine code and read up on it, it produces less NOx emissions than my FSI which itself runs lean most of the time as I’m driving economically and probably mostly in stratified mode. I do therefore buy into the carbon argument and hate the phrase dirty diesel as my diesel isn’t dirty!

For me in my situation it makes no sense to move to electric yet as I’m not a big polluter and the cost is prohibitive vs benefit. Electric tech has to be cheaper and when discussing CO2 and NOx there needs to be a wholistic approach (including industry). Until then I’ll keep my ICE cars.

 

[Guest 4123]

But there's another misconception. Driving 2-3 tonne luxury EV in many countries is still more dirty than driving old small diesel (CO2 wise).
Even more so in colder countries.

The whole point of electric cars is that they should be run on green electricity, not power derived from fossil fuels. Otherwise what's the point?

RAB

 

[maxufeiss]

Only slight issue with this argument is that 3L’s are a scarce and finite resource making them a flawed solution to the problem sadly.

Sadly true, but i don't see any government push to make more similar things in places where it makes more sense than electric.

Making at least A2 2,5L should be doable by now without making it too expensive, 2L might be too much to ask. And yet they give money out to people buying electrics even here, where still using old Passat 1.9TDI makes more sense than "brandspankingnew" Tesla. Ofcourse this is purely on co2 perspective, thus covering mostly global warming stuff they advocate.

The whole point of electric cars is that they should be run on green electricity, not power derived from fossil fuels. Otherwise what's the point?

Nobody is shaming large electric cars where they pollute more was my point.
My house does not have separate power line coming from green resources that is powered if wind is blowing or sun shining, so i'll have to do what's offered. Nobody waits beside supercharger for wind to blow either. I'll rely on info about how much making electricity etc produces co2 by average. Even wind turbines, solar cells, cabling and batteries need to be made first, so they are never completely green. So at the moment governments in these kind of places should push for greener electricity overall first, before starting to give handouts for not so green cars.

-----------
Other things produced by old and new diesels is another matter, i'm no scientist to fully understand human and earth health. Is making plant food and warmer world better than producing cables, batteries, turbines from glass fiber and solar cells in the long term? Beyond me....
I hate to see any smokey car on road too, but i'll try to be logical about non-smokey ones.
There probably is a line where more regulations is more harmful, so i don't believe in reaching EURO 19 norms etc. As long as cars are getting heavier and larger, they probably pollute more than cars made today. There is tradeoff in newer cars that trade more co2 for lesser nox etc, don't know how good that is either... And it makes them heavy too...
(I'd like to see some day what scientist would do if i put them in test chambers. Then in some i'd throw 100 kg slightly hammered coal and in others blow 100g of ultra fine powdered coal )

I'd love to have electric car, but it does not make any sense economically (far away from it) or environmentally (probably not so far away) in here, compared to good diesel.

But if we are talking about diesel, then firsthand should be a push in sections that pollute most. Ships are mostly pretty badly regulated around world, electric trucks don't make sense yet, vans are diesel, they don't try to electrify railroads everywhere, nuclear is bad etc. Other things leave this topic completely so let's leave it like that... My writing is pretty offtopic anyway already...

I'm all in favor for electric cars where it makes sense, electrician after-all . And will own one if it makes any sense sometime. Converting A2 probably will not happen (unless there are parts everywhere, spare A2 and i just wanna do it). But i don't understand overall hate for diesel or gasoline everywhere. If expected lifetime co2 emission per km for specific electric car is more than using existing already available car, then it is a dirty car and the push does not make sense in that region at that time. City has other reasons than co2 (but in here they remove electric trolleybuses and replace them with gas or diesel ones)....

Excuse my rambling, i'll try to hold myself back

 

[Guest 4123]

My house does not have separate power line coming from green resources that is powered if wind is blowing or sun shining, so i'll have to do what's offered.

No need for that, you just buy your electricity from companies who generate their own power from green sources. These companies put as much, if not more, power into the grid than their customers consume. VW's factory making the ID3 is powered by green electricity. It's pointless buying an electric car that's powered by dirty electricity.

A step in the right direction would be to stop buying electricity from Carbon Putin! Humanity has to stop taking carbon from the ground and putting it in the atmosphere.

RAB

 

[Pinkythelabrat]

I think it’s an extra £20 a year for me to have a Green Source electricity plan and I use a fair bit more electricity than the average household. It’s not a large extra cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sunsurfer]

I think it’s an extra £20 a year for me to have a Green Source electricity plan and I use a fair bit more electricity than the average household. It’s not a large extra cost.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ten years or less ago, if you had the roof space facing mostly South, it was a no brainer to put solar panels on your roof.
If you could afford to do it.
I'm not sure of the economics now. But does it make sense to have home solar panels charging your electric car and the battery in your car powering your house when you're not driving it?

 

[Guest 4123]

Although the subsidies are gone, panel/system prices are much cheaper now. Next year VW will have a charger (ID Charger) that will have the capability of charging your car with solar power only, alongside its use as a conventional charger:

12 facts on the ID.Charger

With the ID.Charger, customers will be able to charge their e-cars quickly and conveniently at home in the future. It offers a charging capacity of up to 11 kW and charges almost five times as fast as a normal household socket. All you need to know about the Wallbox made by Volkswagen.

www.volkswagen-newsroom.com

RAB

 

[maxufeiss]

In here everyone is already paying for green energy. If we take what they plan to hand out to green energy producers this year and divide by population, that makes 75€ from everyone. And you still need to buy that electricity...
And clean expensive energy has moved energy expensive production into china etc, where they will burn coal to get that cheap energy.

Playing with solar would be fun, but i have no roof or yard to experiment and storage is a large problem. If i'll ever have a chance, i'd experiment converting some of my electricity to high voltage DC, since many things do not care really what you feed them. Computers, TV-s, screens etc should be completely fine with DC up to 350-400V. Then i'd only use grid for these devices when voltage falls below certain threshold (not enough sun or wind). Adding high voltage battery or car into that mix should not be large problem too...
But that would be mostly for fun, cannot guarantee it would be greener than using all from grid directly.