Ethical and Legal use of HID lights

Alan_uk

Alan_uk

A2OC Donor
We've an ageing population and many will expect to drive well into their retirement. A problem with ageing is being susceptible to bright lights. I foresee a rise in night time accidents.

The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 states that no headlamp shall:
(a) Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road.

Surely the legislation should have specified lumens (output). I believe that it only specifies a minimum of 30 watts (input) for vehicles post 1st April 1986.

PS found this at
http://www.bmwcarclubforum.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=674

It is not acceptable to convert a headlamp approved for use with halogen filament bulb to use an HID gas discharge bulb. The only acceptable way of converting is to replace the headlamp unit with one approved for gas discharge bulbs. Such headlamps will be approved to UNECE Regulation 98 and 'E' marked. If headlamps approved to UNECE Regulation 98 are retro-fitted, they must be self levelling (as part of headlamp sysytem, or via self-levelling suspension), and headlamp washers must be installed. Under the Road Traffic Act 1998, it is an offence to fit or use parts which are not legal.

and this Autocar evaluation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=yVuSSdZNsZw

On a related note, I would have thought that clarifying the law on LED lights (e.g. brake and sidelights) and ****encouraging*** or mandating conversion of existing vehicles would do a lot more for safety by reducing the number of vehicles with a single rear light.
 
the self leveling is still unclear. For example, my friend's 996 GT3 has factory fitted HID which he said has no self leveling, to save weight ;-)
 
not true. they will all have auto levelling, it MUST be in to conform to ECE98. TÜV would not let it out of the factory without.

some more argumentation: http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=268050

and a statement / fact sheet from the DfT (which surprises me immensely and I honestly cannot believe the "we feel"-attitude)

From the DfT:

December 2006

Aftermarket HID headlamps

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
Click to expand...


Bret
 
The thing is, the MOT test can only check for suitable beam alignment - they are not instructed required or trained to check whether the lamps are HIDs, then whether it has auto level and functioning headlamp washers.

Personally I find the fluttering action you get with some auto-levelling systems with factory-fit HIDs far more distracting than a well-aimed retro-fit HID in a normal light cluster (and actually I think some of the older Audi factory xenons are the worst). You don't get that constant up-down-up-down beam deflection, nor do you get the light colour/intensity changes you also see with the same systems - white to blue to white - which is really misleading!
 
The regulations governing the retro fitting of HID systems are woefully outdated now and should be brought upto date to reflect the massive increases in xenon tube quality and tolerances.

The kits of 2-3 years ago were bad, no doubt about it: they were little more than rebased D2S tubes and alignment in reflector systems was poor, leading to lots of glare and p1ssed off drivers!

The newer kits, as well as having better electronics and alignment, are now also incorporating theblack shields which prevent glare even more (and are similar to the D2R tubes) and performance is much better with better beams and little or no glare.

Unfortunately though, youdont always get what you pay for and sometimes the cheaper kits actually provide better results

Now onto self levelling: it is merely a tool to ensure that the lights are properly adjusted for different load conditions and suspension heights. No system in the world can react quickly enough to compensate for dips and bumps in the road and so you will always get situations where dazzle occurs with oncoming traffic. Because of the increased light output, this is more if a problem with HID than halogen. However, the increased road visibility in 90+% of the time more than makes amends in my book

One final point: the white-blue-white effect you see is a factor caused solely by the technology involved in projector systems. In this regard, typical reflector headlights (as fitted to the A2) are better in that they don't do it (which is why some plonkers fit very blue looking xenon tubes of 8000k and above to try and get the blue-ness - now these really should be cracked down on).

Whenever you have a sharp cut-off to a beam of light, you'll get diffraction patterns and when these pass through a thick piece of glass, they appear as chromatic aberrations (you see this quite often in photos, fir instance when a tree with bare branches is photographed against the sky, there is sometimes a purple fringe or halo around it).

The arguments will rage on, but in my book, a quality kit, properly fitted and aligned, and of the correct colour us a safety device - it gives the driver much better vision at night. Yes, there will be times when glare is inevitable but these do not outweigh the benefits and as such, I think that charging extra (sometimes over £1000!!) is not on. By lowering prices, more factory kits will be ordered and so the need to fit an aftermarket kit will diminish.

Yes, get the blue and badly aligned/fitted kits off the road, but don't penslise those drivers wanting to increase their night-time safety.

My tuppence worth!

Cheers

Mike
 
There are many reasons why HID (High Intensity Discharge) lights work better than normal halogen headlights. A car aficionado might tell you that it’s all down to how it looks when they’re driving the car. However, a smart driver can tell a lot more than that. He can probably say that halogen lights are made from filaments that are filled with halogen gases, while HID lights don’t have any filaments at all. However, these are only basic information. The truth is, there are a lot more things to know about them, and if you consider yourself a part of the smart ones, you should definitely read on.

The first thing you should remember is that HID lights work better because they are much brighter compared to halogen lights. The average lumen (the amount of brightness that comes from a light source) of an HID light is about 3000 lumens. Compare this with a typical halogen light which is 1400 lumens, and you’ll see the point. In fact, studies from experts even show that drivers react faster and more accurately to minor roadway mishaps when they are using H.I.D. headlamps rather than the halogen ones. The testers believe that the primary reason is due to clearer visibility when using HID lights.
 
IMO :Being constantly dazzled by both types of lights whilst driving nights
i can definitly tell who has hid's and halogen!! although they both hurt the same!!
But i think the law should not try to ban either but ensure they are aligned safely as not too dazzle other drivers!!
Why have we no mandortory light test like on the continent winter and summer because if aligned properly both are an asset compared to the old technology employed in earlier cars!!!

I forgot to mention i have just spent 4 weeks recovering from a cataract operation!
iam 45 have driven trucks for 20 odd years and began losing the sight in the affected eye over the last 2yrs which were mainly night driving
And sitting in a room with 6 other people all 60+ made me wonder why my sight went so fast
i could only attribute it too the amount of dazzle suffered at night(not proven)

I also noticed more people are driving with full beam constantly on and don't seem to recognise on coming vehicle beams or just don't give a stuff and the dazzle from full beam is well nasty on country roads!
 
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Hi

I don't think there is any question that HID are brighter and therefore illuminate the road better and will help a driver to spot any hazard earlier. And I guess most people on this forum will understand the technological differences, though that is not necessary to appreciate the benefits. But at what level of brightness do they create less benefit / higher risk?

If a 6000 lumens light reduces the risk for the driver say by 10% but increases the risk by more than 10% that a driver coming the other way will be blinded and cause them to crash into the driver with the HID lights, then there is an overall net loss of benefit. Up to what level of lumens do you find acceptable? 6,000? 12,000? 100,000?

And how do we ensure all vehicles have correct alignment of their headlight beams, which surely must be more crucial with such powerful lights? The 3 year (then 1 year) test doesn't seem to eliminate the problem.
 
Maybe making it legal to wear night driving glasses would be a more suitable solution!!
They work i now use them every night!!!
 
Mr. Attorney says nothing new or useful.

There are alignment tests and there are significant legal requirements. Best source for these is ECE R48 and R98.

Bret
 
yellow just takes the glare off,
thats probably why the french used to have yellow lights:)

reactolites are a no go tho :p
 
This reminds me of a HUGE discussion in the portuguese Audi forums. Everything was peachy until mid-2008, when the inspection centers started to clamp on aftermarket HIDs - of any kind, unless self-levelling (tested by having two people sit in the back seat) and with washers ("could you give it a squirt? Thanks, guv"). The Highway Code only said "white or yellow lamps correctly aligned as not to cause glare and with range X", but due to a transposition of European regulations and the advent of CoCs that went away.

The main issue is with this - HID lamps of more than 2000 lumens or Halogen lamps of more than 3000 lumens have to have these systems installed. HID lamps of less than 2000 lumens (what you could claim if you appeared there with an H7R HID) seem to be an automatic fail because they're just not homologated.

Someone mentioned the 996 Porsche - that is probably the only exception to this rule.

And, mind you that many Audis of the same vintage as the A2 have projector headlamps but some of them did NOT have HIDs behind them when they came from the factory.
 
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I bought Anti dazzle Hid's and even though the fitting kit says to remove the projector I left it in as all thats changed now is the light intensity and not the beam.
 
If the cops/ MOT people are going to start pulling people over for well-aligned, but aftermarket HIDs, I wish they would get their house in order first on the more irritating, dangerous, and commonplace issues that seem to afflict many many other cars on the road such as
1. blown bulbs in side lights/ dipped beams
2. poorly aligned standard dipped beams that dazzle you like blazes
3. idiots who drive with the dreaded "side lights and foglights" combination
4. muppets who drive in the dark with no lights on at all (I see this pretty much every night driving in London these days)
5. numpties who drive with their rear foglights on in clear visiblity
6. choppers who don't understand what main beam/dipped beam switch is and leave it on main the whole time.

Sorry just had to get that lot off my chest.
 
Well, most of those are related to not having one policeman per person.

Thank god...

A blown bulb WOULD make you fail your MOT, right?
 
Dan, I wholeheartedly agree with every point you make there - trouble is that it's not coppers who do the MOT and even if they did, they'd not be able to stop the mentality behind those who drive with fogs in clear weather.

The question of headlamps is one that vexes me greatly, to the extent that I've just come in from the garage, having checked and double checked that mine are all in tip top condition for tomorrow (I don't want to give Audi the opportunity of failing Tank).

As long as lights are of a decent, white colour and are aimed in the right direction, causing no glare to other road users, I can't see what the problem is - to me, being able to see well at night is a safety issue and anything that can help a driver to spot hazards earlier is a good thing, as long as it's not to the detriment of other drivers.

To this end, I would like to see HIDs fitted to ALL cars as standard - they last longer, use less power and make for safer roads, as long as they're pointing where they should.

Rant over!

Cheers,

Mike
 
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Well, I agree whole heartedly - all cars should have HIDs, but here in my country a Koni FSD installation is "replacement of original parts with same characteristics" while an aftermarket HID is "modification of characteristics" which would require a new Certificate of Conformity and/or homologation. And there's a 120€ fine everytime a cop stops you.
 
I agree Dan and i think all cars should be fitted so the rear fogs go off everytime you turn your light off so you have to put it back on if you need them ( just like ours)

Hey Mike has Tank passed ok ?

I've got the 5k with Anti-glare and they went straight through on MOT no problem

Phil
 
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