FSD/Spring inconsistencies

KneesUp

KneesUp

A2OC Donor
Following on from my earlier thread 'FSD Spring Mystery - help!' to which so many did help, I can now attach photos as suggested by Skipton-Mike, and report on my findings.

This morning I photographed the car with its Audi Sport rear springs fitted and measured the distances (using steel rules and set squares) from the tyre top to the arm lip leading edge. I then swopped the Springs back to the original SE items. The results are... weird...!

I also checked the FSD part numbers and they are correct for the car, as are the bumps stops.

In summary:

The Audi Sport springs gave a rear 'tyre-top to arch-rim' gap of 85mm.
The front equivalent distance with Weitec -30s is 42mm.

The Audi SE rear springs (all be it with 42,000 miles on them) gave a rear gap of 62mm.

So... instead of the Sport Springs reducing my rear ride height by the assured 10mm, they raised it by 23mm!

With the springs off the car and on the flat ground, a direct comparison of the SE Springs and the Sports springs shows the new Sport items to be 8mm taller than my SE Springs, which accounts for some of the difference. They also have half an extra coil in them. They appear the same overall width, proportion and strand width. I would suggest the other 15mm of differnence is accounted for my the SE's softer 'give' under load and their age. But it's a major difference...

Also, with the SE springs refitted and the ride height now looking far more even (still 15-20 too high at the back to be dead-level though), the car rides far more pleasingly. Suddenly the FSDs are feeling right. Before, the ride quality was simply unpleasant and uncontrolled.

I accept that judgements about car ride are highly subjective but I have been in the motor sport business all of my professional career and I do know a controlled firm ride from one that isn't. I am at least now moderately happy with my new FSD set-up. Ideally, I'd have the SE springs pre-compressed by 15mm and re-fitted, but I've rather had enough of all this now. Besides, with my space-saver and tools in the boot the rear will sit a tad lower anyway.

In conclusion, my feeling is that - and as I have stated before - that both spring and FSD batches vary at point of manufacture A LOT. I think that is largely why there are so many differing opinions among Forum contributors on various set-ups, quite apart from personal taste, of course. I really researched all this very thoroughly - a lot with Schnelletrecker's help - and my experiences seems to show that all you can really do is chance it by taking a educated punt. The rest is down to your own R&D.

Very many thanks again to all who helped me sort this out.

Richard
 
Here are the pics for my thread as above:

I'm not sure how the pics will order themselves after I 'submit' but what they show are:

1. the car as it was with the Sports springs on the rear (a high rear end);
2. the car with Sport springs and white measuring card in the arches showing up the 'gaps' more clearly and allowing the gaps to be marked.
3. the markings on the cards, front and rear, with Sport spring son the rear.
4. the car with white cards in place after the SE rear springs are fitted.
5. the car as is now, no white card, with original SE springs on. Actually 23mm lower at the back...

I think the improvement is plain to see.
 
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Spring Inconsistencies

:confused: Hi Guys, i took a trip down to a well know garage this morning and i'd like to report something while it's still fresh in my head. This garage who has done quite a lot of work on many of the A2's on this forum are convinced that there may be a problem with these recent shocks as he cannot understand why this manufacturer would make a shock that would need a totally different spring to work with it. He then went on to say that car's like the A3, A4, GOLF, BORA etc all use their standard springs when it comes to using these shocks so why should it be any different to our A2's. People who have come to him and have had this setup done have had nothing but negative feedback on how the car handles when fitted.

He said one of his friends went for this setup and as the car went through a rippled surface in the road the shocks managed the first couple but then he ended up with blurred vision as the car was all over place and not responding as it should.
He's quite sure that there may be a bad batch of these shocks getting put onto our A2's and i do trust his judgement as many of us have had extensive work done by him and his team who are one of the best at their job. I think it's just going to be a case of trial and error and who ever finds the best setup for our car's will no doubt share it with the rest of the forum.

As for my 1.4 TDI 90 SPORT, i'm going to leave the standard sports shocks on there and see what happends when i put those 30mm 30mm WEITEC springs on. If they level the car to a standard that i like, and is able to manage carrying my dj decks in safety well then i'm not going to fix what ain't broken, and then just wait a couple of months untill there is some more feedback on this.

Hope this is helpful, Sojah.
 
Not having touched anything yet,I Presume you can only fit front springs to the front and rear to the rear?

its the only reason I can think of the springs sitting so high?

Probably the reason why star performance refused to quote for fitting or supplying these for A2 diesels.
 
Sounds to me like the rear springs you had fitted were just not the right ones. The Audi Sport springs should clearly be shorter than the SE springs not taller. Where did you get your new rear springs from, worth checking the part numbers.

Yes, front and rear springs are not interchangeable.

As to the FSD lifting at the front - remember the FSDs are not actually strictly speaking designed for the A2 - they've been designed for the VW Polo, which is a heavier car, but it happens to share a lot of suspension components such as the shocks. I imagine the lifting effect seen is because the front of the A2 weighs less than the front of the Polo.

As to my own experience of FSDs - they went on fine, the car is fine and I was fully prepared for the different change in ride height front vs. rear which is well documented. I seriously doubt that Koni has flooded the market with dodgy kit.
 
Reading the replies so far...

Vince at Stealth Racing has consistently reported that A2 Konis are inconsistent in their ride-height and that he hasn't found the right consistent spring/shocker compromise yet. He has said twice to me over a 6 month period that he felt the A2OC should 'club together' to appeal to Koni to get them to sort it out. But so long as many are happy and we muddle through then it won't happen... I suspect if pressurized Koni will just stop saying they'll fit the A2, because they are unlikely to make one specially for it. It's the inconsistencies I can't understand. I will write to Koni and see what they say (as has Vince, I believe, before now)

As for my Springs specs. As previously detailed they are the correct Sport Spec for my car and my year of car: 8Z05111115BC, three white dots and two orange - as recommended by Skipton and fitted to his car. And they are definitely stiffer than my SE springs, but also taller! Like I said... I recon the manufacturing batches vary.
 
Hi Knees-Up

Dampers
--------
I thought it was fairly easy to check damper rates on a test stand which cycles the damper rod and measures compression and rebound damping characteristics. Is this something Koni UK would do under warranty.

Springs
-------
Audi offer about 20 choices of rear spring to cater for std and sport suspension on petrol and (heavier) diesel models plus a range of options like opens sky which can add up to a significant difference in the weights of individual cars. In addition there appears to be 3 chassis number changes which could affect spring specs depending on model year. Finally, I had great difficulty in identifying the spring p/n on my car because the yellow and white paint dots were almost impossible to differentiate.
The specs of yours and Skipton's car are similar - diesel, open sky, bose etc so vehicle weights should be close.
If your chassis number starts with 8Z-3 then the spring spec would be the same as Skipton's newer car
Final factor is spring colour code. I know Skipton is meticulous in everything he does but is there a change the faded paint dots were mis-read, particularly if yellows and whites were involved. Obviously, if the springs were identified by chassis no. this would not apply.

Anyone else with a diesel on sports suspension who could check the paint code on their rear springs for comparison

Cheers Spike
 
Spike,

Thank you for taking the trouble to write so thoroughly.

Unfortunately, my Konis were bought off EBay and, although box-fresh, came with no original receipt, so no warranty applies.

Also, I have no tools or garage and need my car, so swopping shocks around with my garage rapidly makes little economic sense. That said, your point is well made.

As for the Springs. Skipton and I corresponded re chassis number and specs (and I am mindful of the myriad different types of spring). My chassis number is, as you state, and Skipton's car and mine should be near identical in terms of Spring rates. I am also happy that the colour coding is correct. I got the reference from Skipton and other sources.

Crucially, with the SE springs re-fitted at the back my car is a perfectly pleasing drive now and generally better than it was stock. It's not as good as I was expecting, but my local roads are particularly bad and the rather bouncy front end may be unfairly judged. At least the project hasn't been a waste of time and money, which it was feeing like 'til this morning when I did my spring change...

I think the most important thing now is for me to get plenty of miles on it. It goes to Stealth for a 4-wheel alignment and other stuff on Thursday.

Onwards and upwards...
 
crickey that is some ride height you have there with those Audi sport rear springs!!! the SE springs look about right for standard ride height--so in my opinion i think the sport springs you have are wrong,i know you say the part number checks out as does the paint code-but they are just wrong.i would say that your dampers are fine--mine was quite soft with SE rear springs/fsd's-it was only with weitecs on the back it felt sporty/firm.
today i took some pics of my mates fsi sport to show that even the stock suspension has pooping elk look about it--but more important it shows how low the sport springs are--whoops forgot to upload them ---DOH i will add them in a mo.
picture.php

really hope we can get to the bottom of this and get you enjoying the koni's soon cheers mike
 
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Just to add to the mix:

The part number for the new springs was determnined from ETKA alone - no reference to mine. I looked up the sport variant and also the weight range to get the spot colours.

I think that there is a variance in spring batches, but also, the bedding in phase will be important.

I have little liking for Audi springs - the aftermarket ranges do seem to be better made and far more consistent.

Cheers

Mike
 
Thought I'll post a pict of mine for reference, which is one of the oldest FSD installed in an A2 and is with SE springs all round. Excuse about the poor lighting, the sun was in the background...

The front and rear height difference has definitely gone down a little over the years, by rough measurement, i think the rear is less than 5mm lower than front, measuring from top of the wheel to the wheel arch. The front used to be visibly more raised when first installed. I have bose and the diesel (larger) battery at the back, but I don't carry a spare all the time. Front is standard 1.4 petrol.

P.S. I know my wheels look rubbish :-(
 
I'm beginning to think it would be really, really cool to get a manufacturer to make a set and then work out the changes... with maybe a +5% on the spring rates, to simulate Eibachs.

Bret
 
Skipton: I got the same spring ref from Audi and VAG Cat. I don't know if that's a common source as ETKA but I think it's likely that the ref, part number and colour codes are right. I recon it's a duff batch. Which would also make replacing them with another set hopeless, if there's more duff ones in the store...

What would be handy is if someone else with a heavy diesel sport ie with Open Sky and Bose, for example) had a wee look under the back of the car and saw what their colour codes were...

As A2sumo Mike says (and thank you Mike for your thoughts and pic), the springs I bought just seem very wrong.

I thought Humps's pic was really relevant - it surely shows that if you just fit the FSDs to your standard car (SE in his case) and pile the miles on it will settle down just fine...

As Brett Kivi says, the ideal springs probably don't exist. But so long as FSDs are variable, nor, in theory, can they.

In my case, if the car settles down a bit more front and rear, which I'm sure it will, and I go the 205/45 7J 17" tyre/wheel route (which will make my rolling radius a tad bigger, so taking up some 'space', while also helping the 17" diminished-comfort factor a bit), I recon I'll have cracked it. All be it at serious cost.

Thank you again, everyone, for all your input. I hope it's been useful for all.

Richard
 
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