timmus
A2OC Donor
Having had a chance to get a feel for things, I'd say that understeer is reduced. The softer front end does stop the car from skating across the tarmac.
Tom
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Spidan Springs on a TDI with FSDs
- Thread starter timmus
- Start date
Having had a chance to get a feel for things, I'd say that understeer is reduced. The softer front end does stop the car from skating across the tarmac.
Tom
You are right about trade-offs but somehow Audi don't get the trade-offs as well sorted as other manufacturers. i cannot imagine any other car where owners spend so much time and money trying to do what Audi should have done before putting the car on the market in countries other than Germany. Whatever the strengths are of Audi chassis and suspension engineers you only have to read road tests of the past 10-15 years to note a common thread of compromised handling etc which trails most competitors and only made acceptable on quattro models. The A2 actually being one of the few Audi's 'rated' positively by Autocar. Whatever faults MGR had the one thing they were extremely good at (even BMW admitted as such) was sorting out front drive ride/handling set ups as anyone who has driven any Z series car will testify.
timmus
A2OC Donor
There's no doubt that everyone's first criticism of the A2 is its woefully bad suspension.
Given how deep the A2's engineering goes, it is surprising that Audi didn't spend a little more time trying to get the suspension right. The A2 is a particularly difficult case because it's so light, but nevertheless your point about Audis in general is true. There was a joke graphic that found its way onto the forums some months back about how Audi planned on simply binning the suspension on RS cars and attaching the wheels straight to the chassis.
Suspension comes up as a topic of conversation here so frequently partly due to the above, but also because we as individuals have different requirements from our cars. There were a few accepted upgrade routes when I first bought my A2, but none of them seemed to suit my requirements as closely as I wanted.
PompeyDave has had positive results with Monroe shocks and I've got an FSD-based solution which doesn't require sport-biased springs. There are a number of options now available to add to the more well-established set-ups, catering for a range of driving styles and budgets. It may have been a mammoth community effort and one which perhaps Audi should have done for us, but it's been fun, right!?
Given how deep the A2's engineering goes, it is surprising that Audi didn't spend a little more time trying to get the suspension right. The A2 is a particularly difficult case because it's so light, but nevertheless your point about Audis in general is true. There was a joke graphic that found its way onto the forums some months back about how Audi planned on simply binning the suspension on RS cars and attaching the wheels straight to the chassis.
Suspension comes up as a topic of conversation here so frequently partly due to the above, but also because we as individuals have different requirements from our cars. There were a few accepted upgrade routes when I first bought my A2, but none of them seemed to suit my requirements as closely as I wanted.
PompeyDave has had positive results with Monroe shocks and I've got an FSD-based solution which doesn't require sport-biased springs. There are a number of options now available to add to the more well-established set-ups, catering for a range of driving styles and budgets. It may have been a mammoth community effort and one which perhaps Audi should have done for us, but it's been fun, right!?
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humps
A2OC Donor
Yeah, I am aware you're on the petrol springs but I want to gauge the perceived comfort level. If I get the petrol without OSS springs I can *probably* expect similarly improved comfort which will make it very good. It also means I can finally get those RS4 replicas in 17" which I agree are the best looking wheels on an A2.
timmus
A2OC Donor
Well, with the Spidan springs and my 45-section tyres, I can run those 17" wheels with relative comfort. It's not crashy at all and, as a guage, is definitely more comfortable than the A2s I've driven on 15" wheels with standard Audi suspension.
Tom
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fbi
Member
Interresting thread !
I had the opportinity to make my own opinion, having played with the suspension and wheels of my former 1.4 petrol and my current 1.6 FSI.
But what I've found is very different. That's for my driving style, of course, although I'm also relatively concerned about comfort.
My "CV" follows...
1.4 petrol w/OSS : with std suspension + 15" wheels, then with 17" wheels, then FSD/Weitec -30/00 + 17" wheels, and finally with FSI front springs and 16" wheels.
1.6 FSI w/OSS : with std suspension + 16" wheels, then FSD/Weitec -30/00 (front springs for 1.4 !) + 17" wheels, then FSD/ std front 1.4 springs (doh! stupid me) + 17" wheels, same with Whiteline rear ARB, finally with genuime S-line springs for FSI w/OSS, FSD's, rear ARB + 17" wheels. And the same setups but with winter tyres on 15" wheels instead.
My nr1 conclusion is that the factor that has the biggest impact on comfort is the wheel diameter. Well, in fact, it's the tyre profile, but we cannot play alot with it. Moreover, bigger wheels are most of the time (much) heavier, so they degrade acceleration and braking too. Too bad 17"'s look so good
I've driven a long time with my FSI on too soft springs, and it was awful ! Way too much body roll, and bottoming up.
That said, an TDI is even slightly heavier than an FSI...
As many others have also found, my opinion is that the better compromise on handling vs. comfort is obtained with 16" wheels.
I found an improvement with FSD shocks aswell.
Now I have the "elk" stance with the S-line springs on the 4 corners, because of the FSD's, but at least the car handles correctly. What a relief !
Maybe a solution would be spacers to slightly raise the rear ?
I had the opportinity to make my own opinion, having played with the suspension and wheels of my former 1.4 petrol and my current 1.6 FSI.
But what I've found is very different. That's for my driving style, of course, although I'm also relatively concerned about comfort.
My "CV" follows...
1.4 petrol w/OSS : with std suspension + 15" wheels, then with 17" wheels, then FSD/Weitec -30/00 + 17" wheels, and finally with FSI front springs and 16" wheels.
1.6 FSI w/OSS : with std suspension + 16" wheels, then FSD/Weitec -30/00 (front springs for 1.4 !) + 17" wheels, then FSD/ std front 1.4 springs (doh! stupid me) + 17" wheels, same with Whiteline rear ARB, finally with genuime S-line springs for FSI w/OSS, FSD's, rear ARB + 17" wheels. And the same setups but with winter tyres on 15" wheels instead.
My nr1 conclusion is that the factor that has the biggest impact on comfort is the wheel diameter. Well, in fact, it's the tyre profile, but we cannot play alot with it. Moreover, bigger wheels are most of the time (much) heavier, so they degrade acceleration and braking too. Too bad 17"'s look so good
I've driven a long time with my FSI on too soft springs, and it was awful ! Way too much body roll, and bottoming up.
That said, an TDI is even slightly heavier than an FSI...
As many others have also found, my opinion is that the better compromise on handling vs. comfort is obtained with 16" wheels.
I found an improvement with FSD shocks aswell.
Now I have the "elk" stance with the S-line springs on the 4 corners, because of the FSD's, but at least the car handles correctly. What a relief !
Maybe a solution would be spacers to slightly raise the rear ?
dan_b
A2OC Donor
More than anything it's interesting to see now that there are more options than "just" the Koni FSDs, which I suppose can only be a good thing.
I share a similar journey to FBI in some senses - my 1.4TDi SE with OSS was originally on OEM SE 16s, then I went to 17s with oversized 215s, then I fitted the FSDs with Weitecs and OEM Sport Rears, then I went to 16s with oversized 195s, and now I'm on 15s on the OEM 175 size.
As with FBIs point, the biggest impact on ride compliance was probably going to 15s (at least until I put the pressures up to an MPG-boosting 42PSI!), but that comes with a change in handling too - it's a bit more floaty, and there's way less front-end grip than on the 16s or 17s (although it does brake and accelerate noticeably quicker on 15s than 17s!). But the FSDs made a huge impact to the car's overall manners - less crashy, less jittery, more stable under acceleration and braking, and more traction mid-bend than OEM. It just drives and behaves like a much more developed car with the better damping.
Audi are seemingly always criticised for their chassis dynamics, it tends to be jittery firm, but without necessarily the handling benefits that such a firm ride should see, usually because of so much understeer built in! Do the fancy magnetic adaptive damping shocks you get on some trick Audis actually work?
I share a similar journey to FBI in some senses - my 1.4TDi SE with OSS was originally on OEM SE 16s, then I went to 17s with oversized 215s, then I fitted the FSDs with Weitecs and OEM Sport Rears, then I went to 16s with oversized 195s, and now I'm on 15s on the OEM 175 size.
As with FBIs point, the biggest impact on ride compliance was probably going to 15s (at least until I put the pressures up to an MPG-boosting 42PSI!), but that comes with a change in handling too - it's a bit more floaty, and there's way less front-end grip than on the 16s or 17s (although it does brake and accelerate noticeably quicker on 15s than 17s!). But the FSDs made a huge impact to the car's overall manners - less crashy, less jittery, more stable under acceleration and braking, and more traction mid-bend than OEM. It just drives and behaves like a much more developed car with the better damping.
Audi are seemingly always criticised for their chassis dynamics, it tends to be jittery firm, but without necessarily the handling benefits that such a firm ride should see, usually because of so much understeer built in! Do the fancy magnetic adaptive damping shocks you get on some trick Audis actually work?
timmus
A2OC Donor
Even though I'm happy with the comfort I've managed to obtain with the 17" wheels (deeper sidewall than standard, FSDs, Spidan springs), I'll still be changing to 16" wheels. I'll most likely up the tyre pressure so that I get no net gain in comfort, but will benefit from less unsprung mass and better economy. However, they have to be of the RS4* design, simply because I love 'em!
Cheers
Tom
*The 9-spoke, 17" wheels issued on the A2 are in fact not based on the design of the RS4 alloys, but on those of the Mk1 TT, though I accept they're very similar. The recessed 'lip' on our A2 17" wheels runs all the way along the side of each spoke, right up to the centre, and then back down the other side of the neighbouring spoke, as per the TT's 9-spoke wheels. The RS4's 'lip' fades to nothing after a few centimeters down each spoke.
Anyway, I'm in danger of throwing my own thread off topic.
Cheers
Tom
*The 9-spoke, 17" wheels issued on the A2 are in fact not based on the design of the RS4 alloys, but on those of the Mk1 TT, though I accept they're very similar. The recessed 'lip' on our A2 17" wheels runs all the way along the side of each spoke, right up to the centre, and then back down the other side of the neighbouring spoke, as per the TT's 9-spoke wheels. The RS4's 'lip' fades to nothing after a few centimeters down each spoke.
Anyway, I'm in danger of throwing my own thread off topic.
Attachments
fbi
Member
I forgot to mention that the ASR kicked in very often when accelerating with the too-soft springs. Now it kicks in much less often.
With a TDI, that may be even worse because of the higher torque.
In my case, the difference in comfort was very little beween proper spings and 1.4 petrol springs. The difference in handling is huge though.
When I had the 1.4 petrol with Weitec springs, the ride was a bit harsher, and there was significantly less body roll. This is, I think, a combination of the latter (stiffer Weitec springs), and the lighter engine (the difference is close to 100kg !)
For my ride height issue, I could also refit the std FSI rear springs...
I'm wondering what I shall do.
With a TDI, that may be even worse because of the higher torque.
In my case, the difference in comfort was very little beween proper spings and 1.4 petrol springs. The difference in handling is huge though.
When I had the 1.4 petrol with Weitec springs, the ride was a bit harsher, and there was significantly less body roll. This is, I think, a combination of the latter (stiffer Weitec springs), and the lighter engine (the difference is close to 100kg !)
For my ride height issue, I could also refit the std FSI rear springs...
I'm wondering what I shall do.
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timmus
A2OC Donor
Well folks, I've had these springs in place for a while now and so thought I'd give you my verdict...
I've just got back from a short holiday on the Isle of Man, which consists of some very rough roads and some very smooth ones (the TT course!).
I'm absolutely thrilled with the Spidan springs. The car is undoubtedly more comfortable for them - that much was obvious from the moment they went in - but it also handles better than it did before. The best way I can describe the effect of these springs is that they 'liberate' the FSDs.
The springs themselves are quite soft meaning that the car rides over the lumps and bumps in the road very nicely. However, when I start throwing the car around a bit, the FSDs do their job very well; the car firms up and doesn't roll anything like as much as one would intuitively expect given the usual comfort on offer.
I get much less understeer than I did before with Audi's Sport springs, too. Previously, if I was cornering fast and hit a bit of a bump, the car would lift and skate sideways across the tarmac slightly. This effect is all but gone; I have so much more confidence that, when going 'round corners, I'm not suddenly going to find myself in the opposite lane or a hedge.
I haven't driven a car with the Weitec springs extensively, but for the brief periods I have been behind the wheel of a car fitted with them, I found them very stiff. Whilst it was an obvious improvement over the standard setup - in handling in particular! - they seemed to stifle the comfort on offer from the FSDs.
I'm sure that the FSD-Weitec setup is probably a better option for out-n-out handling, but I'm absolutely amazed by the versatility of the FSD-Spidan setup. If you're principally looking for increases in comfort without wishing to sacrifice the A2's gokart handling, this setup gets my recommendation.
Cheers,
Tom
I've just got back from a short holiday on the Isle of Man, which consists of some very rough roads and some very smooth ones (the TT course!).
I'm absolutely thrilled with the Spidan springs. The car is undoubtedly more comfortable for them - that much was obvious from the moment they went in - but it also handles better than it did before. The best way I can describe the effect of these springs is that they 'liberate' the FSDs.
The springs themselves are quite soft meaning that the car rides over the lumps and bumps in the road very nicely. However, when I start throwing the car around a bit, the FSDs do their job very well; the car firms up and doesn't roll anything like as much as one would intuitively expect given the usual comfort on offer.
I get much less understeer than I did before with Audi's Sport springs, too. Previously, if I was cornering fast and hit a bit of a bump, the car would lift and skate sideways across the tarmac slightly. This effect is all but gone; I have so much more confidence that, when going 'round corners, I'm not suddenly going to find myself in the opposite lane or a hedge.
I haven't driven a car with the Weitec springs extensively, but for the brief periods I have been behind the wheel of a car fitted with them, I found them very stiff. Whilst it was an obvious improvement over the standard setup - in handling in particular! - they seemed to stifle the comfort on offer from the FSDs.
I'm sure that the FSD-Weitec setup is probably a better option for out-n-out handling, but I'm absolutely amazed by the versatility of the FSD-Spidan setup. If you're principally looking for increases in comfort without wishing to sacrifice the A2's gokart handling, this setup gets my recommendation.
Cheers,
Tom
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timmus
A2OC Donor
It seems Sojah has found a retailer of Spidan springs in the UK...
http://www.123spareparts.co.uk/cgi-...t=autoteile&suche=autoteile100113&FZGNR=13360
Cheers,
Tom
Edit: THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE.
http://www.123spareparts.co.uk/cgi-...t=autoteile&suche=autoteile100113&FZGNR=13360
Cheers,
Tom
Edit: THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE.
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I have now had the springs on a few days and as with Tom the improvement in ride quality was immediately obvious, it is almost as if i could go back to 17" wheels! I haven't had chance to give the car a good workout so cannot comment on handling but expect similar results to Tom. It is noticable how stiff the rear springs now feel (SE springs) however I suspect this is close to the optimum set up for getting the best ride quality in an A2. Until the FSD's are in need of replacement (when I will consider Bilsteins) I am now able to drive without spending so much time dodging the potholes!
Sounds really good and something we should all possibly look at doing but i would definitely still try to dodge the pot holes as the state of some of our roads are simply terrible and a dented or cracked wheel is so easy to get and the last thing any one wants.
I actually had a puncture today which wasn't nice and is my first in as long as i can remember (he say's touching wood) but thankfully i noticed it outside a branch of National tyres so was not as much of a problem as it might have been. Typical that these things happen when you've just bought brand new tyres.
timmus
A2OC Donor
Thanks for the post, Adrian. It's good to know that I'm not totally delusional.
I'm pleased to know that you've also found them significantly more comfortable. As you say, the back end feels quite stiff by comparison. I briefly considered getting a set of Spidan springs for the back too, but decided against it for handling reasons. As previously mentioned in this thread, a firm back end helps to reduce understeer.
Being able to drive without scouring the road ahead for the slightest imperfection is a liberating experience. Enjoy!
Tom