Going for the full Koni FSD suspension upgrade- any parts missing off this list?

Pompeydave

Pompeydave

A2OC Donor
Hi all,

My 1.4tdi has 177k on it and the ride is appalling, really awful. So, as part of the ongoing restoration process I'm upgrading to Koni FSD's all round.

Two questions:

1. Do I fit SE or Luxury springs OR weitec +30-00's? I'm unsure as there are so many different opinions out there :confused:

What I would like to fit after is the 17" Sport alloys, if that makes any difference to spring selection? I understand that tyre choice will help here with comfort, but I'm not sure which size to go for?

Overall, I want it to sit level and be a compromise between good handling and comfort- I'm willing to sacrifice all out handling if it means better comfort I suppose.

2. I've ordered this list of parts to restore all the associated bits that must be pretty tired on my car by now- is there anything I should add to the list, bearings, bushes etc?

8Z0 412 301 - front bump stop (2 pieces)
6Q0 512 131 B - rear bump stop (2 pieces)
6 N0 412 249 C - strut bearing (2 pieces)

also recommended to exchange especially in case of high mileage:

8Z0 511 149 A - rear, bottom spring yellow PUR rubber seat (2 pieces)
1J0 512 149 B , rear, top spring black hard-rubber seat (2 pieces)
6N0 413 175 A - dust protection for the front damper piston rod (2 pieces)
1J0 513 425 A - dust protection tube for the rear damper piston rod (2 pieces)
8Z0 411 315 D - droplink (2 pieces)

suggested to exchange due to possible rust pitting:

N 019 530 3 - screw (6 pieces)
N 101 064 02 - nut (4 pieces)
N 101 389 02 - screw (4 pieces)
N 102 078 03 - screw (4 pieces)
N 102 613 10 - nut (2 pieces)
N 102 861 10 - nut (2 pieces)
N 104 018 01 - nut (2 pieces)
N 905 173 02 - screw (2 pieces)
N 906 484 02 - screw (4 pieces)
N 909 081 01 - nut (2 pieces)

Thanks in advance....
 
Either your`ve posted this message before or the exact same post has been made by someone in the past. I`m sure i`ve read it. I can`t help you but check out the search function.
 
Pompeydave said:
...
What I would like to fit after is the 17" Sport alloys, if that makes any difference to spring selection? I understand that tyre choice will help here with comfort, but I'm not sure which size to go for?
...
Click to expand...

If you have 17s, the ride will continue to be excessively firm. There's no spring in alloy, but there's lots in rubber. Try 16s (or even 15s, but at high pressure).
 
I think you have all the Parts that I changed when I did my ones a couple of years ago. I would really recomend weitec -35/-30 springs as a set of 4 as it is not possible to buy just the rear springs. I did try my car with se springs and I felt it was under sprung and to soft. If after fitting you feel it is riding a little low on the rear it is possible yo put some spacers under the rear pur spring rubber(I have some on mine).
On the subject of tyres I run qt audi wheels(17"7 wide)with 215/40/17 tyres. Comfort is good ride is good handling is sharp. BUT I RUN FEDERALS as I have found they are a higher side wall profile than other brands of tyre in the same size ---- I know it sounds wrong. We have this set up on two of our a2's and they last well and perform good. Riverlad also questioned what springs and he followed my advice and is very happy. But at the end of the day some people want Citroën ride others go kart ride. I think the fsd/weitec combo sits nicelly in the middle.
Yvonne my wife has had a bad back for 6 years and had 3 lots of spine surgery and she finds my car comfortable.
Hope this helps on the subject of suspension that does end up being a mine field ! Cheers mike
 
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Cheers Mike & Mike! Looks like I might have all the bits I need listed already then.

MikeMars- I see what you're saying re smaller wheels giving more rubber, but I'm torn now as I really like the standard 17" Audi Sport wheels. Don't know if it's a comfort compromise I'm willing to make though.

A2Sumo- does your car sit level with -35/-30 springs?

Anyone know who's the cheapest supplier for the Koni's and Weitec's? I've been looking for good used Koni's but there don't appear to be any out there at the moment....
 
I have a 2001 TDi and fitted FSD's but kept the standard SE springs and the car sits level. All lowered springs are stiffer than standard so the compromise leans towards handling rather than comfort.
I recall Humps fitted Eibach springs (the Rolls Royce of lowered springs) on his petrol A2 with FSD's but changed back to standard because he could not live with the loss of comfort on London's terrible roads.
Consider starting with standard springs then change them later if you can't live with the looks or handling. Its an afternoons work if you can do it yourself.

Cheers Spike
 
I endorse Spike's advice 110% as I lashed out on lowering Weitecs when I did the full FSD conversion but scrapped them and reverted back to the 00/00 standard setup after a couple of months - main reasons being:

1. The 'squatting dog having a *rap' stance the car adopted at the rear was cosmetically awful.
2. The lowered front end caused the under bumper black plastic section to scrape against speed bumps & kerbs.
3. The ride quality was 'well hard'.

After 35,000 miles since reverting to FSDs + standard length springs the handling and stance of my A2 have been spot on.
 
Interesting idea's re springs chaps- if I went with standard height springs (which would be a good idea as every car known to man scrapes the bottom of it's front bumper coming up the hill where I live) would I be better of going with SE, Luxury or Sport flavour?

I only ask because I'm sure mine must be shagged after 177k....
 
Hi dave my car did squat slightly at the back(look in my gallery for images of before and after) but please remember my car is fsi so is lighter in the front than a tdi,so probably sits higher than most. I have never had the front grind on speed humps or getting on and off mu mum and dads driveway which is very harsh. The springs are such a personal choice ---- listen to others views then take the plunge. Im sure any un wanted springs will sell on here no problem. You will really enjoy the koni FSD'S. Mikee
 
Spike is correct (as always :) ) except I have yet to find time to revert my Eibach, but it is not even a question, they will be off my car.

I will stress though, harshness and comfort is a very personal thing and also depends on the road you most often travel on. Unfortunately, it is not cheap to test it out but then suspension tuning has never been a cheap exercise even for car manufacturers. Best course of action is seek generous members around you for a feel of different setups. I very much like my Eibach in spirited driving (and it looks great slightly lowered), but not as a day-to-day car. I also noticed improved comfort using larger profile tyre on the same 16" wheel so I will not even think about 17" myself!
 
Ok thanks for the replies. Lots of options to ponder but can anyone answer my standard audi springs question please?
 
Hi Dave
Do you have an SE model now?

I honestly don't know what "luxury" springs are, but to answer the rest of your question. If you fit Koni FSDs and buy new replacement Audi SE springs, the front ride height will be altered slightly - up by 10-15mm.
What you could do if you wanted would be to fit OEM Audi Sport springs at the front, and fit standard OEM Audi SE springs at the rear. The Sport springs are 10mm lower, and so will bring the front down to the same ride height as the SE rear. This will have the effect of maintaining the standard SE ride height overall.

Or what you could do is buy a set of Weitec 30s for the front (commonly known as the 30/00 option - where the 00 denotes that actually you're not buying Weitec rear springs at all!), and buy a pair of OEM Audi Sport springs at the rear. This will have the effect of giving you, overall, the Sport ride height - ie approx 10mm lower than SE.

Or you could try another route which is to find a mechanic who can do spring compression on a set of OEM SE springs and compress them by 10mm - that way you retain the SE ride height and SE spring rate.

Complicated? Not really!

For what it's worth, I have an SE and I chose to do Weitecs at the front and OEM Sport at the rear.
 
dan_b said:
For what it's worth, I have an SE and I chose to do Weitecs at the front and OEM Sport at the rear.
Click to expand...

Whereas I've done the other option which Dan describes; Ive got SE springs at the back and Sport springs at the front, as I didn't want the car lowered at all. I remember explaining my set-up, and the alternatives, to you in a previous thread.... http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthrea...ion-and-possibly-steering&p=138501#post138501

I've also never heard of "luxury" springs.

Cheers,

Tom
 
In theory your existing springs should not have sagged very much so there is little reason to change them if there are no obvious defects.
Measure the front and rear ride height - centre of hub to top of wheel arch - then we can compare it with lower milege cars to see if keeping your original springs could be an option.
For info, buying new Audi springs is a bit tricky as there are several variations depending on car spec - sport or SE, petrol or diesel, std roof or open sky etc. If you want to change from the original spec it usually involves getting a spring colour code from another member with the model you want to copy.

Cheers Spike
 
Ok thanks again for the replies- very informative. Sorry this is almost a repeat topic from a few weeks back- I read through so many suspension threads I think I fried my brain and forgot my original post!

Lots of options to ponder but I think the message I've taken onboard is that suspension setup is largely a personal preference issue.

I'm used to very firm suspension so I might find a setup on the stiffer side acceptable....
 
I'd argue that FSDs aren't stiff. Especially in combination with 15s. With 17s I found them fine, with light 15s and Eibachs fine. However, this was all with worn droplinks.
First thing I'd do, based on my recent experience, is change the droplinks to Meyle HD ones. Don't go original, they won't last (I'm on my fourth set, though I do drive a *lot* of gravel). They will tighten the ride up massively on their own. The 185/60R15s I have on right now have bedded in - as have the droplinks - and things are now more jiggly than they ever were with the 195s. Those are 195/50R15s on 7x15 Team Dynamics Pro Race 1s. So light and stretched.

I have a very strong feeling that the ride in the summer will be awful and that the droplinks will have made the difference. Then we'll end up on B6s. FSDs also seem to be inconsistent between batches, so if you want the deliberate sportiness, don't do it and go B6 instead.

One of the best opportunities you'll get to test different setups will be in Germany next summer where you'll have 40 cars, each of which is pretty much guaranteed to have a different set up and one will float your boat. Problem there, again, is the wear on different components.

There are a bunch of parts which make a huge difference and most people ignore them.
- Gearbox mounts
- Engine mounts
- Dogbone
- wishbone mount rubbers
- ARB

I'll go through why: the system is set up based on the "aggregatenträger" or subframe. The frame is bolted to the car with I think it's 8 bolts.

On the left and right of that frame is a "konsole" which has the rear section of the wishbone attached with a large bolt. This is buffered against NVH with a large rubber mount. That rubber degrades over time. Repeat on both sides.
The ARB is bolted to the "konsoles", originally mounted without collars on the bar itself and with plastics, it corrodes, splits the collars and then starts moving. Mine was moved by Stealth a couple of years ago and I moved it again myself last week. I want a new one with collars or it'll move again. The rubber bushes alone aren't enough, but they also tighten up the ride if they're replaced. Left-right movement is not supposed to happen - that's supposed to be stopped by the ARB - so if it's not tight enough, you get roll.
The ARB is connected to the suspension strut with the droplink. These get an awful lot of work and I'll agree with an opinion expressed on the German forum that they're undersized. Meyle now do HD ones - MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE PERFECT TOOL TO BOLT THEM IN!
The rear section of the subframe is connected to the gearbox with the dogbone. This also makes a signficant difference in NVH but less in handling.
Major other sources of NVH are worn engine mounts. The bolts *can* shear, so I'd suggest changing them if you're doing everything else, because you'll increase wear on the old parts.
The bottom of the suspension strut joins to the wishbone with a balljoint. On early cars - up to 2003 - the wishbone is cast iron and the ball is non-replaceable. The later cars have replaceable ones and wishbones made of steel pressings. So you can't replace this without the entire wishbone. If you're going to do both rubber mounts, then you could argue this would be a good idea.

The main thing, though, is that the car is essentially completely imbalanced. 75/25 front rear is slightly OTT but not very far off. This also means that any change you make at the front is disproportionately effective but also that most of the wear is at the front.

Make sense? It got a bit longer than I wanted, I'll probably rephrase and expand later on my blog.

Bret
 
Got to respect someone prepared to write a post of such length and insight

J


Posted from my iPlop...
 
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