1.4 Petrol EGR - Should it suck?

ajsellors

A2OC Donor
Strange question, perhaps?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of my Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air System too Lean error.

I have performed a smoke leak test and fixed the small leak off the inlet due to my oil separator hose not having a clamp on the connection. That however should not really play a part as its before the throttle.
https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/aua-oil-separator-clean-or-just-refit.37528/

The only other leak was from the EGR valve breather pipe.

This leads onto the question, what's the real purpose behind the small dangly pipe on the petrol 1.4 EGR valve?

1.4 Petrol EGR Info.png


The A2 1.4 petrol engine self study guide describes the vent pipe as for pressure equlisation inside the valve. I can understand that as the parts move inside and as the external air pressure changes you need to equalise the balance of internal and external atmospheric pressure.

What that would also lead me to understand is that this vent should not be connected to the engine air inlet and therefore also not allow extra air to enter the intake system (after the throttle).

My leak test showed that there is the ability of air to move between the atmosphere and the intake through this pipe. When the engine is idling, the pipe sucks quite hard. Hard enough to hurt if I cover the filter on the end of the pipe with my hand.

So the question, should the engine suck air through the EGR breather pipe? If not, is my almost new but obliviously out of guarantee EGR valve broken, again?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Andrew
 
From the description and diagram, it would seem that the connection for pressure equilibration is only to compensate for movement of the valve stem, nothing more. It would seem that the valve stem is leaking below the chamber connected for pressure equilibration. As there would be normally very little flow in the connected tube, could you not try squeezing it shut to see if it removes the error?

RAB
 
From the description and diagram, it would seem that the connection for pressure equilibration is only to compensate for movement of the valve stem, nothing more. It would seem that the valve stem is leaking below the chamber connected for pressure equilibration. As there would be normally very little flow in the connected tube, could you not try squeezing it shut to see if it removes the error?

RAB

Thanks, I thought as much. I'm going to block the vent tube and see what happens. It will take a few days to see if that cures it as the trim adjustment is only just out of range, some of the time.

regards

Andrew
 
Thanks, I thought as much. I'm going to block the vent tube and see what happens. It will take a few days to see if that cures it as the trim adjustment is only just out of range, some of the time.

regards

Andrew

An update.

I put gaffer tape over the end of the filter to block the intake of fresh air (the pipe is thin and semi-rigid plastic so would not take to crimping).
This the EML came on again after a couple of days so that didn't fix it.

I have however just replaced the EGR anyway and the replacement doesn't suck!
So the answer to the question is, the EGR should not suck air in through the filter, if it does, its broken.

Thanks to member @413, I do also have a set of refurbished injectors so that's another thing on the list to look at. If my injectors are anything like the "before" on the supplied test report, that would certainly cause a lean running problem!

I changed the EGR last night so it will take a couple of days to see if the EML comes on again, but I expect it will given the readings I took.

Onto the next...

regards

Andrew
 
An update.

I put gaffer tape over the end of the filter to block the intake of fresh air (the pipe is thin and semi-rigid plastic so would not take to crimping).
This the EML came on again after a couple of days so that didn't fix it.

I have however just replaced the EGR anyway and the replacement doesn't suck!
So the answer to the question is, the EGR should not suck air in through the filter, if it does, its broken.

Thanks to member @413, I do also have a set of refurbished injectors so that's another thing on the list to look at. If my injectors are anything like the "before" on the supplied test report, that would certainly cause a lean running problem!

I changed the EGR last night so it will take a couple of days to see if the EML comes on again, but I expect it will given the readings I took.

Onto the next...

regards

Andrew
Hi
I to have been chasing long term fuel trim codes randomly coming up.
Did the egr fix. As I fitted a new non Gen egr valve that made the car run very badly. Refitted old one and cleaned throttle body. All good for 2 months till today.
Any help greatly received
Thanks
 
Hi
I to have been chasing long term fuel trim codes randomly coming up.
Did the egr fix. As I fitted a new non Gen egr valve that made the car run very badly. Refitted old one and cleaned throttle body. All good for 2 months till today.
Any help greatly received
Thanks

Hi,

I have fixed it! It was a few things, the EGR helped but wasn't the only thing, or the biggest contributor. Long post on this coming up soon.

However, if you change your EGR you must run the EGR Adaptation:

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Exhaust_Gas_Recirculation_(EGR)_Valve_Adaptation

If you don't run the adaptation then the ECU won't know the correct closed and open positions for the new valve.
This can cause the engine to run badly as the wrong amount of opening is applied and can damage the valve (trying to make it to move further than the end of movement / burning out the solenoid coil).

Spoiler alert:
The final fix for me was fuel injectors. My 150K mile fuel injectors had a poor spray pattern and low fuel delivery. Too little fuel results in a weak mixture! The new oldstock injectors I got from eBay have transformed the engine. I think I have got my lost 16 BHP back (haven't measured it yet) and shock horror, there is torque at low revs, from the 1.4 petrol! MPG is much better too and no EML for 3 weeks now.

regards

Andrew
 
Hi Andrew,

I appreciate that it is very early days, but do you have any thoughts on any effect on fuel economy with the new injectors? Our >180k 1.4i's last fill hit the heady heights of 31mpg (commuting just before Christmas), and having replaced the throttle body, EGR, lambda (garage did this after it failed at the MOT, replaced by non-original that entailed cutting off the fitted plug, bit worried that this might still be giving excessively rich mixture) am scratching my head and wondering about other things that could bring the economy somewhere closer to normal - so the injectors are an obvious thought.

best, Robin
 
Hi Andrew,

I appreciate that it is very early days, but do you have any thoughts on any effect on fuel economy with the new injectors? Our >180k 1.4i's last fill hit the heady heights of 31mpg (commuting just before Christmas), and having replaced the throttle body, EGR, lambda (garage did this after it failed at the MOT, replaced by non-original that entailed cutting off the fitted plug, bit worried that this might still be giving excessively rich mixture) am scratching my head and wondering about other things that could bring the economy somewhere closer to normal - so the injectors are an obvious thought.

best, Robin

I'm only a 1/2 way though the new tank after changing them and are not doing my normal commute but with some uneconomical driving, a bit of motorway and some urban, the DIS currently shows 46MPG on the average.

regards

Andrew
 
Very interesting read. Have the same fault code.

Injectors are perhaps logical, but mine has 30k miles on it and is driven (hard) still close to 60mpg.

Can injectors be checked with VCDS?

Any how-to to replace injectors? Do you need the head to come off?
 
Is that better than normal or expected? You're the second person I know who has >45mpg with a 1.4i .. I think ours may need a proper fettling to get it running with the mixture not mimicking an old mini with the choke fully pulled out... Thank you for your prompt response.
 
Is that better than normal or expected? You're the second person I know who has >45mpg with a 1.4i .. I think ours may need a proper fettling to get it running with the mixture not mimicking an old mini with the choke fully pulled out... Thank you for your prompt response.

Yes, last tank was 32MPG! Although that was exceptional, previously I have struggle to top 40MPG on my normal driving which includes mostly A roads and motorways. I'm now seeing instantaneous figures much higher than I have ever seen.
A2black2018.png


regards

Andrew
 
Very interesting read. Have the same fault code.

Injectors are perhaps logical, but mine has 30k miles on it and is driven (hard) still close to 60mpg.

Can injectors be checked with VCDS?

Any how-to to replace injectors? Do you need the head to come off?

You can see injector timing in VCDS but fuel delivery isn't measured directly in the 1.4.
The fuel rail pressure control is also analogue in the 1.4 as the fuel pressure regulator is controlled by the intake vacuum.
(The ECU in the 1.6 measures the fuel rail pressure directly with a sensor and controls the pressure with a solenoid valve).

Assuming that your lambda sensor is working correctly, you can see what's going on by looking at the live lambda reading and short / long term trim percentages. Given that you have a long term trim too lean error, that's just recording that the lambda probe is sensing that the engine is running lean so looking at the values would probably just tell you what you already know.

If one or more injectors is performing very differently to the others you can get "Injection Timing Deviation (Balance Fault)". Its also worth looking at the per-cylinder misfire count at idle to see if one is different to the rest.

Lean is too much air or too little fuel, or both. There are lots of places that can lead to extra air getting in and its easy to tick those off first.

One interesting thing though is that if you have eliminated all possibilities of air leaks and you find that the engine runs better at idle with the AC on or when you pulse the brake pedal, that can point to fuel supply problem. Both these things cause the ECU to increase the injector opening time at idle and so cause the injectors to supply more fuel. If the engine runs better with this and the fuel trim gets closer to 0 then then the injectors may not be delivering enough fuel for proper running at normal opening times.

I found changing the injectors easy. All I needed was a ring spanner, flat bladed screwdriver and a hose clip tool (for the air intake hose).

There is a "how to" here.

https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/remove-injectors-1-4-petrol-bby.36815/

however I didn't take anything off when I did mine.

I will do a "how to" as I changed mine without taking the air intake to throttle body off or disconnecting any hoses.

regards

Andrew
 
Many many thanks for feedback; I will certainly read this more thorough later when digging more into this as soon as (working) temperature increases..

Could you share part number for the AUA injector (see the last letter differs), and any recommended brands (see VDO, Bosch etc offers them at ~100EU/pcs)
 
.

The new oldstock injectors I got from eBay have transformed the engine. I think I have got my lost 16 BHP back (haven't measured it yet) and shock horror, there is torque at low revs, from the 1.4 petrol! MPG is much better too and no EML for 3 weeks now.

regards

Andrew

Great job, just goes to show these little 1.4's are decent engines ;) when maintained by a good owner rather than the usual condemned as gutless rubbish. All it takes is a thorough service and attention to detail like you have done to release the horses. I doubt it's any accident that so many 1.4 petrol cars were sold as they were perfectly adequate cars to drive when new. Ours was running well enough but the Terraclean transformed it in the low rpm throttle response and throughout the rpm range.
 
Strange question, perhaps?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of my Long Term Fuel Trim Additive Air System too Lean error.

I have performed a smoke leak test and fixed the small leak off the inlet due to my oil separator hose not having a clamp on the connection. That however should not really play a part as its before the throttle.
https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/aua-oil-separator-clean-or-just-refit.37528/

The only other leak was from the EGR valve breather pipe.

This leads onto the question, what's the real purpose behind the small dangly pipe on the petrol 1.4 EGR valve?

View attachment 45027

The A2 1.4 petrol engine self study guide describes the vent pipe as for pressure equlisation inside the valve. I can understand that as the parts move inside and as the external air pressure changes you need to equalise the balance of internal and external atmospheric pressure.

What that would also lead me to understand is that this vent should not be connected to the engine air inlet and therefore also not allow extra air to enter the intake system (after the throttle).

My leak test showed that there is the ability of air to move between the atmosphere and the intake through this pipe. When the engine is idling, the pipe sucks quite hard. Hard enough to hurt if I cover the filter on the end of the pipe with my hand.

So the question, should the engine suck air through the EGR breather pipe? If not, is my almost new but obliviously out of guarantee EGR valve broken, again?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Andrew
Is this diagram the right wat round ,, for exhaust intake.
The pipe and manifold seem more suited to the 180 degree orientation
 
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