Break, Bale or Bounce back?

[audifan]

Nice job and nice write up.

 

[Kleynie]

Now just need to finish getting the interior back in.

Costs? Not much. Some grease which I had: just normal lithium multi-purpose. I can't see why you'd need anything special: it runs in a tight temperature range, at slow speeds with low contact patch loading.

1/3rd roll of RS sealing tape, so under £4.

Bit's of steel and welding: not going to count that. Coffee consumed during whole process probably cost more and even that's instant.

1/3rd bottle seal restorer: say £3.50.

I already had some Wurth Bond and Seal, but let's say 1/ 6th tube. £1.

I'd say under £10 all in? I can't think of anything else.

What I would say however is I was lucky that feet aside, nothing was actually broken. I didn't have to replace impossible to fabricate parts (e.g. all those little sliding feet: 3D print @depronman ?).

Also, it was a lot of heavy, tricky work. Doing this commercially, for someone else with some sort of warranty? No thanks, I'll leave it to the experts. The price @Kleynie charges is a stonking bargain and I'm sure can cover the full range of issues without batting an eyelid. I suspect I've been let off lightly with this one.

Would I recommend you give it a go? Realistically you'd have to be very keen, quite well equipped, happy to have car off the road for a bit, have a garage big enough for both roof (with room to work) and the car. Not to mention that whole 'have a go' engineering aptitude. If you have, then go for it.

Also, I'm not sure all the trucks are steel: if others are plastic or aluminum my repair method becomes moot.

So ... if I was to buy another car with a broken roof, yes, I'd do it again. Does it put me off having a car with OSS? Yes, it does really: if nothing else it's massively heavy for what you gain. I think they should have done a fixed pan roof with a retracting blind. Far lighter, stiffens the car, no reliability issues. On the other hand, I might well come to love it if / when the car gets some actual use.

Anyway, once the rest of the interior is in I'll move on to whatever's next. Literally can't remember what that is!

Very well done, looks like you've done a good job. And to answer your query, all the runners are steel, no matter what year, the only thing that changes are the rear 2 panels.
I advise everyone that has a roof off of me to open at least once a week, and to service every 6 months, so I would do that too if I were you just to keep it moving. Now you know what you're doing as well, when servicing, have both moving panels out and re align them, as they do move fractionally over time. This is what I do when I service anyone's roof, have the panels out, apply CV joint long life grease, and re align and re assemble.
Again, good job.

 

[Rusty911]

Very well done, looks like you've done a good job. And to answer your query, all the runners are steel, no matter what year, the only thing that changes are the rear 2 panels.
I advise everyone that has a roof off of me to open at least once a week, and to service every 6 months, so I would do that too if I were you just to keep it moving. Now you know what you're doing as well, when servicing, have both moving panels out and re align them, as they do move fractionally over time. This is what I do when I service anyone's roof, have the panels out, apply CV joint long life grease, and re align and re assemble.
Again, good job.

Thank you ? and will do ? . Glad to get the thing back in I have to say.

I've put a little silicon grease on the seals after they were rejuvenated so hopefully that'll help prevent stickage.

Being the mechanically sympathetic soul that I am, I'll also try to remember the help the roof through that one pane-two pane transition. I do the same with my Smart 4/2 cab: it works fine but makes sense to reduce the load when you can.

 

[dj_efk]

Well I must say I've really enjoyed reading all that - I would have been bricking myself taking on this job, you seemed to approach it with very much a "whatever happens, I'll get it sorted" attitude, which I like. I also like your writing style and the pictures (just enough, showing the major stages / points of focus).

Big thumbs up from me.

 

[Kleynie]

Regrading refitting, we used a clamp system, this is shown on a previous thread on Adams car, below. We've fixed a few since then, but, as you say, its so labour intensive that its not viable to make a living out of, its just pocket money for Adam.
One other thing on the repair plate, even if you order the new mechanisms from Audi, the cables come attached with repair plates. Audi must have faith in these to supply new mechanisms manufactured in this way. And, if you think about it the motor gear is applying exactly the same outwards force to the cable as the repair plate is at the other end. The bit that seems to fail is the rivets (so far at least), we've had a couple come back where the rivets have failed, no problems with the plates as yet.

The Open Sky Lives!

Those who read my previous thread will know that my son and I replaced the open sky in his car a couple of weeks ago, however things didn't quite go to plan. https://www.a2oc.net/community/index.php?threads/open-sky-motor-acting-strangely.35430/page-2#post-311392 So the third time lucky this...

www.a2oc.net

Nice work though.

Ian (Adams little helper)

 

[Silverpig]

Very impressive, well done. I would love to have a go at doing mine but sadly I can’t weld and also have no cover. Having said that, I could put a marquee up in the front front garden, so if you fancy popping over with your welding kit and showing me how to do it, I’ll provide endless cups of coffee!

 

[Rusty911]

Well I must say I've really enjoyed reading all that - I would have been bricking myself taking on this job, you seemed to approach it with very much a "whatever happens, I'll get it sorted" attitude, which I like. I also like your writing style and the pictures (just enough, showing the major stages / points of focus).

Big thumbs up from me.

I am sorry, I meant to reply to this at the time! Thank you very much. It's a bit tricky knowing where to pitch these things. You don't want to bang on and on about every detail, but do want to give a good sense of the journey and what's been done. Hopefully there might be something of interest in there. Frankly also, it's brilliant getting the feedback: it really helps push a project along.

As for the can-do: my day job helps keep things in perspective. Be assured, I certainly used to be a bag of bits when I started many years ago. I had my first car project when I was 16 (Austin A35) and was very pleased with myself when I blobbed some filler over a dent and (sort of) painted it. I've done cars ever since either as a hobby or a job. The big 911 bodyshell projects can go on for half a year (800 invoiced hours is upper end, that's just my bit, the metal). After a few of those you do get to the point of knowing however bad things are (and they do get very, very bad) you will come through it and deliver the right product in the end. What I do is nothing compared to many: we all fight in our own way I guess. Trick is to enjoy it where you can and get the lesson out of it regardless.

The day job This is a '73 911 E in for full resto a couple of years ago: I'd say in the upper end of the range I things I do but not the worst either.

 

[Rusty911]

Very impressive, well done. I would love to have a go at doing mine but sadly I can’t weld and also have no cover. Having said that, I could put a marquee up in the front front garden, so if you fancy popping over with your welding kit and showing me how to do it, I’ll provide endless cups of coffee!

I think the pragmatic repair for yours (assuming the drive can be used and your trucks are O.K.) would be the Audi repair plates. With the moving panels out, as Keynie says, you can do a lot of service work, free everything off and re-grease. Then the repair plates can go in and the system re-timed.

In your situation I wouldn't recommend removing the roof: you need loads of undercover space and it takes ages. I certainly wouldn't do anyone else's as not sufficiently confident.

I wouldn't mind having a bash at the repair plate method though if you came over, but that obviously depends on the whole Covid thing. Putting that aside, I'd then say come over and you could do as much as possible with me pointing the way. My home workshop's got everything we'd need in terms of tools etc. All you'd need is the plates, but we'd need to be sure your roof-drive will go again.

 

[Rusty911]

I had noticed that despite my new rear springs that the rear of the car seemed to be sitting bang on level at best, but perhaps a hint of droopy bottom.

Had I added something really heavy, a pint of milk say, it'd start to look low. @depronman had pointed out that there should be a plastic spring receptor at the base as well as the top of the spring.

As there had been absolutely no sign of old ones, I'd missed this so got a couple order via e-bay. Fifteen minutes and they were on. Following a super-market trip late yesterday, can confirm rear definitely fractionally perkier.

 

[Rusty911]

As light a bit better outside I got another shot of a wheel arch area and the underside at the rear:

 

[Rusty911]

Ride height actually looks a bit tall here, but that's more down to my drive than anything else ...

 

[Proghound]

I've got two that are down at the back and both have had the rear suspension done - one very recently. Time to check if there's something missing!

 

[Rusty911]

... which leads me on to the mud-flaps I mentioned a while ago.

These were those generic e-Bay ones you see annoyingly being listed for your car. Doesn't matter if you have a Hummer, a Shadow or a Matiz, these will fit*. I think they were about £14 for the four at the time. I offered them up to various cars over the years: 106, Aygo, V70: all sorts. Nothing ever came close.

*May require completely butchering to get anywhere close to fitting, suckers!

During the other work, my eye fell on these where they'd been gathering dust in the lean-to. 'I wonder ... '

They come with a molded 'extension' which I removed. In retrospect I should have perhaps left some of this on for the rears, but they're effectively now free so I'm sleeping fine despite this.

Now, they may not be to everyone's taste, but the fit from guard to body is quite credible and the fronts have worked out very well I think. The rears are a tad apologetic, but not a disaster.

 

[greywolfhound]

I am sorry, I meant to reply to this at the time! Thank you very much. It's a bit tricky knowing where to pitch these things. You don't want to bang on and on about every detail, but do want to give a good sense of the journey and what's been done. Hopefully there might be something of interest in there. Frankly also, it's brilliant getting the feedback: it really helps push a project along.

As for the can-do: my day job helps keep things in perspective. Be assured, I certainly used to be a bag of bits when I started many years ago. I had my first car project when I was 16 (Austin A35) and was very pleased with myself when I blobbed some filler over a dent and (sort of) painted it. I've done cars ever since either as a hobby or a job. The big 911 bodyshell projects can go on for half a year (800 invoiced hours is upper end, that's just my bit, the metal). After a few of those you do get to the point of knowing however bad things are (and they do get very, very bad) you will come thorough it and deliver the right product in the end. What I do is nothing compared to many: we all fight in our own way I guess. Trick is to enjoy it where you can and get the lesson out of it regardless.

The day job This is a '73 911 E in for full resto a couple of years ago: I'd say in the upper end of the range I things I do but not the worst either.

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I take my hat off to you credit we’re credit is due...aircraft airframe and toolmaking engineering was my life ..before retirement (still is as hobby ) your a talented lad having had 911s for 40 odd years I know how the early ones can rust ..your a dying trade fewer people around to do this sort of work really nice to see ..is it an old Carolina jig ..I see you’ve made up fixture that locates bulkhead to tunnel ..at least if you stick with that marque you can make up all the jigs needed and by now ..you will know them inside out ..?

 

[Rusty911]

If you're not studying them, I think they cast the right sort of shadow to make the car look a bit more planted.

The 4/2 (actually a City) was rescued as a barely-running project from under a tree about two years ago: absolutely brilliant little car ?

There's still a ton of jobs left, but at least it now moves, stops, shines (a bit) and is generally heading the right way. I have a slight suspicion that might be heading for the door ultimately as so far at least, I prefer the feel and drive of the lighter non-OSS petrol I had. We'll see. The journey is by no means complete.

In meantime: gratuitous 3/4 shots. Photos flatter I'll admit, but I'll pop a reminder as to the start point a couple of months ago.

 

[Rusty911]

I take my hat off to you credit we’re credit is due...aircraft airframe and toolmaking engineering was my life ..before retirement (still is as hobby ) your a talented lad having had 911s for 40 odd years I know how the early ones can rust ..your a dying trade fewer people around to do this sort of work really nice to see ..is it an old Carolina jig ..I see you’ve made up fixture that locates bulkhead to tunnel ..at least if you stick with that marque you can make up all the jigs needed and by now ..you will know them inside out ..?

Thank you: I always say that car metal is nothing compared to anything related to aircraft ?

I've done around 45 911 shells (pretty much in a row other than a friend's Series 1 3.8 E-Coupe we did recently). After about two or three years it dawned on me these things weren't going away. Therefore after that made up templates and (rough) tools as I went. Many of these have been made obsolete by the commercial production of new repair panels, but a few years ago it really gave me competitive advantage. As you say, not many people doing it now, and at 49 (and a 1/2), I'm one of the youngsters at this end of the trade. I've done the 911's for around fifteen years commercially. Yet to advertise, just keep ticking along even now.

You're seeing the lifting frame: normally it ties down to the sills and allows me to lift the shells by using a modified engine crane.

The jig is a Celette MUF 7 bracket jig with MZ tower system plus Cobra puller and sill clamps. The hoop that runs on the outside is a trammel system I designed that allows for the measuring of the exterior of the car.

An early project arrived that had been stripped down to a couple of bulkheads, roof frame and the floors and had lost all upper / outer references. After going round in circles for a week or two trying to dummy up ways of measuring it, I built the external measuring 'thing'. It runs up and down on rails I can aim it at a point in space and compare that to the other side. It'll do to about 1mm which is fine for a car.

You can just see the front screen jig and clearly see the rear: they were made here and I believe I'm one of two or three in the country with them.

You'd cringe at the result, but I do a lot of hammer-forming, having arrived at a resin mix that can withstand the forces needed to form cold-rolled mild sheet at 18SWG. This meant that when others were hand-forming sections, I could be a bit more efficient and accurate.

End result looks acceptable: there are also inner wing repairs, new inner sill bases, fabricated kick-panel repairs and new floors in this shot (the latter being supplied):

 

[Rusty911]

Latest update:

Car £250
Wheels: £100
Fuel: £110
Valeting materials: £10
Rear springs: £33
Key cutting (no chips, manual locking only): £25
Rear bump stops (pair): £14
Various paints / abrasives from stock: £10.
MOT: £37
Air freshener: £3
Parts taken from Lasi (price reduction to dealer as result of): £100
Timing belt (bare), Dayco: £35
Oil Filter: £4
Oil let's say roughly £25.
Air filter: £10
Deproman wiper arm rebuild: £35
Deproman check-strap rebuild x1: £25
Deproman electronic services: £35
Postage with returns for above: £22
Old set eBay mudflaps: £5
Rear window repair: £0
Webasto exhaust repair: £0
Club regalia £28
Wiper blade £12
GummiPfleger sealant restorer (1/3rd bottle) £3.50
Roof seals strip (1/3rd roll) £3.50
Used Parts (hatch trim, 2x remotes, right hand vent, wheel centre puller) £35
Rear spring bases £13
eBay A2 carpet set in black: £11
Thermostat £9
Temperature sender £12

(Less theoretical value of spare 15"'s (£75)

Running total at this point: £941

Still to go at this point:

Climate control.
Glovebox lid repair.
Glovebox light repair.
Fuse cover repair.
Baby DIS
Cruise? Looking less likely for reasons that will (might) become clear.
Bluetooth (ditto)
Attach club regalia (saving that until the end).
Front seats out for proper cleaning.
Centre vent repair.
Key programming.
Investigate apparent low running temp (or dash reading anyway, which I appreciate might not be the same thing).
Flat and polish or have painted the bonnet (only cleaned so far).
Upgrade main beam bulbs possibly.
Split and clean headlights, re-polish.

 

[Silverpig]

I think the pragmatic repair for yours (assuming the drive can be used and your trucks are O.K.) would be the Audi repair plates. With the moving panels out, as Keynie says, you can do a lot of service work, free everything off and re-grease. Then the repair plates can go in and the system re-timed.

In your situation I wouldn't recommend removing the roof: you need loads of undercover space and it takes ages. I certainly wouldn't do anyone else's as not sufficiently confident.

I wouldn't mind having a bash at the repair plate method though if you came over, but that obviously depends on the whole Covid thing. Putting that aside, I'd then say come over and you could do as much as possible with me pointing the way. My home workshop's got everything we'd need in terms of tools etc. All you'd need is the plates, but we'd need to be sure your roof-drive will go again.

Thanks Barry, very decent of you. I’ve opened it up today and from what I can see it actually runs reasonably freely. The main fault appears to be the motor and worm drive. I might have a go at putting a shaped metal fitting in to see if the drive cables can be pulled together better and help the motor to engage.
I’ll attach a photo, was this roughly what you had to do?

 

[Rusty911]

Thanks Barry, very decent of you. I’ve opened it up today and from what I can see it actually runs reasonably freely. The main fault appears to be the motor and worm drive. I might have a go at putting a shaped metal fitting in to see if the drive cables can be pulled together better and help the motor to engage.
I’ll attach a photo, was this roughly what you had to do?

Funnily enough I did wonder about an external clamp of some sort but went the additional riveting route instead (as per pics on this thread). I like that a lot ? I'm now tempted to copy your idea to back up my existing drive! What was the extrusion from?

Just make sure that when the motor goes back in, it doesn't try to splay the two halves back out again: if you think it might, shave a tiny bit off each half with a Dremel just to be safe. Also, if it starts to move the front glass O.K. consider how much time you have available before moving to the next step, which would be to remove the two opening panels to give it a service.

Of course, as per many threads, you may find you have movement, but that's not to say the lugs aren't broken. The way to test them is to open the roof just a little way (say so the front glass is simply in the raised position) and then go to close it. If the lugs are fine, it'll move straight away. If they've broken, the motor will run for a second or so before anything starts to move. At this point just make sure you can shut the roof O.K. and you can get organised to do the Audi plate mod as the next step.

On the other hand, if the front pane moves in step with the motor (no play), then the next step would be to remove the opening panels, clean all the sliders and re-grease them. You'd want to make sure you had a whole day free of rain before doing this just in case you hit problems. If all went well you'd do it in two or three hours, but I wouldn't want to start the job if you needed the car soon afterwards or there was rain likely.

 

[Silverpig]

The photos I posted are screenshots from the video done by German chap on YouTube, so sadly I can’t take any credit aside from plagiarism!

I’ve re-read your build thread and checked the operation of my OSS and I believe you are indeed correct, there is a pause in opening so it would be fair to assume one of the fittings is busted.

I’ll have another look at the YouTube video and see if I can get my head around how they repaired it with the roof in situ. From what I remember he took the glass out with the roof closed, I assumed this was because the roof was completely fecked and they had no choice, or would there have been another reason for doing it this way? I mean, you took your entire roof off, I’m assuming that was for the same reason or was it for some masochistic pleasure?!