VCDS Torsion Value

Howey

Howey

Member
England
Having last week done the timing belt and water pump i decided to check the mystical torsion value however its not showing in engine-004 (or in any others)??

Mine is just a shareware version if that makes any difference?

What i can see is fuel consumption at idle 924 RPM = 0.5l p/h
2000 rpm (ish) stationary= 1.0l p/h

Does anyone know why my vcds lite is not showing torsion value?

Has anybody fine tuned there values for maximum economy?

Cheers

Howey
 

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What was your engine cookwater temperature at the time of testing and making the screen shots? It should be above 80 degrees Celsius.
In your first screenshot, the fourth field ( most right field) is your TV in CF. -1,1 means it is set a bit advance with regard to the “ ideal” setting of 0,0. Positive figures means retarded and negative figures obviously advanced settings . And here’s the thing. You have good idle compensation figures ( MWB 13) en good consumption figures (MWB 15). So if the car drives well, don’t bother to adjust the TV. But if curiosity wins than you have a good baseline can adjust to TV 0,0 and go from there to see the differences. As I figured you have read some articles about this given you’re looking in the right places, you know where you want to be?.
In fact you are shifting the torqueband curve along the RPM. Go more advanced (-) you will gain torque lower in the RPM. Go more retarded, you will gain more torque in the upper regions of RPM. Hence the consensus should be 0,0. But not all engines are the same. If you would go WOT and you feel your loosing noticebly torque past 3000rpm, you should advance the TV a bit. Make small adjustments!!!

Good luck, I’m still adjusting as well to find my ideal setting. But I have to return my injectors first I’m afraid. I am nowhere near your compensation figures ??
 
DuncanA2 said:
What was your engine cookwater temperature at the time of testing and making the screen shots? It should be above 80 degrees Celsius.
In your first screenshot, the fourth field ( most right field) is your TV in CF. -1,1 means it is set a bit advance with regard to the “ ideal” setting of 0,0. Positive figures means retarded and negative figures obviously advanced settings . And here’s the thing. You have good idle compensation figures ( MWB 13) en good consumption figures (MWB 15). So if the car drives well, don’t bother to adjust the TV. But if curiosity wins than you have a good baseline can adjust to TV 0,0 and go from there to see the differences. As I figured you have read some articles about this given you’re looking in the right places, you know where you want to be?.
In fact you are shifting the torqueband curve along the RPM. Go more advanced (-) you will gain torque lower in the RPM. Go more retarded, you will gain more torque in the upper regions of RPM. Hence the consensus should be 0,0. But not all engines are the same. If you would go WOT and you feel your loosing noticebly torque past 3000rpm, you should advance the TV a bit. Make small adjustments!!!

Good luck, I’m still adjusting as well to find my ideal setting. But I have to return my injectors first I’m afraid. I am nowhere near your compensation figures ??
Click to expand...
Sorry thought one picture would have it on but was a smidge over 80 in one of the measuring blocks!

Rarely go over 2500 rpm looking for the best economy figure really would that be best at 0?
 
As I mentioned, there is only one way to find out. Did you measure your TV before the cambelt replacement? If you did you know your consumption figures from experience. If not than I would set to TV 0,0 and then experience in advance and retarded direction lto find that sweet spot.

I made one mistake. If you shift the TV in advanced direction (-) than you will gain torque in the upper RPM regions instead of lower regions. So shifting in retarded direction (+) will gain torque in the lower RPM regions . Some find +2,2 a good setting.

Retarded is changing the center camshaft bolt counterclockwise. Pay attention not to overtighten the three smaller bolts as they can break. Tighten them to 25Nm or 18 ft lb.
 
DuncanA2 said:
As I mentioned, there is only one way to find out. Did you measure your TV before the cambelt replacement? If you did you know your consumption figures from experience. If not than I would set to TV 0,0 and then experience in advance and retarded direction lto find that sweet spot.

I made one mistake. If you shift the TV in advanced direction (-) than you will gain torque in the upper RPM regions instead of lower regions. So shifting in retarded direction (+) will gain torque in the lower RPM regions . Some find +2,2 a good setting.

Retarded is changing the center camshaft bolt counterclockwise. Pay attention not to overtighten the three smaller bolts as they can break. Tighten them to 25Nm or 18 ft lb.
Click to expand...
So simply slacken the three bolts and tap the cam with 18mm spanner anti clockwise towards cab imagine its a tiny adjustment, will mark the correlation with cam and sprocket before i begin!

Cheers!

Howey
 
Yep that’s it?. Just put the turbo pipe back on and do the check in VCDS. In fairness it is a procedure of 5-10min per adjustment. Let us know what setting you end up with.
 
Watching with interest - I do wonder if the TV settings are partly why most people struggle to get better than 50-55mpg average in their TDi90 whereas @Edwrai cannot get his to use fuel at a rate much below 60mpg even if he tries!
 
Yep if all engineparts are in good shape then this TV check might just be your ticket. In order to have a better understanding it is pertinent to keep in mind that under load, the TV will retard by a 0,5 degree.
 
spike said:
More info on 'Torsion Value' here - https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/pd-engines-the-problem-of-setting-torsion-value.336279/

Something I'd not picked up on previously is that 'torsion' translates from German to Crank Angle. The article talks mainly about valve timing but the camshaft controls the mechanical side of the fuel injection cycle which may have more effect on fuel economy when the cam timing is changed.

Cheers Spike
Click to expand...
As you pointed out previously Spike, the Torsion Value does not apply to PD engines:

None starter after head change 1.4TDi

Can anyone shed any light on this problem please? I am a time served mechanic though I've not done this as a job for 25 years. That being said I'm comfortable tackling just about anything on the A2. I recently changed the turbo which is a nightmare to change, so much so that on a 100k mile car I...
www.a2oc.net www.a2oc.net


"Note to PD (pumpe duese aka unit injectors) and CR (common rail) owners: The timing in PD and CR engines is determined electronically by the ECU. There is neither a need nor an ability to check timing on the PD or CR engines using a scan tool. There are no graphs published for the simple reason that the timing is set using a dedicated VAG locking tool when changing the timing belt :)"

Just set up using crankshaft and camshaft locking tools, following instructions to the letter. Then turn the crankshaft one turn and re-check; adjust if necessary. The torsion value is irrelevant. If it wasn't it would probably take hours and hours of trial and error - mostly the latter!

RAB
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dj_efk said:
Watching with interest - I do wonder if the TV settings are partly why most people struggle to get better than 50-55mpg average in their TDi90 whereas @Edwrai cannot get his to use fuel at a rate much below 60mpg even if he tries!
Click to expand...

Most likely to do with driving style and the type of roads, however I can’t get the same from the tdi 75s I’ve had. From measuring at the pump over 20k miles I averaged 63.5mpg over from 1470L of diesel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Edwrai said:
Most likely to do with driving style and the type of roads, however I can’t get the same from the tdi 75s I’ve had. From measuring at the pump over 20k miles I averaged 63.5mpg over from 1470L of diesel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Yes I know - this figure is abnormally good from literally almost everyone else with an ATL. You have previously stated you don’t drive slowly, just keep to the speed limits when cruising, which I do as well:

In Akoya, I can just about get to 63mpg over a tank if it has been all long journeys and I try really hard for all of that time.

In Audrey, I can’t get quite as good figures, despite their specs being identical (apart from Audrey having the @timmus intercooler and a PTW instead of a MYP, both of which combined should, if anything, help rather than hinder consumption figures. Both cars have working thermostats and temp sensors, both cars are freshly serviced, both cars are on the same wheels (pepperpots) and high efficiency tyres set to full load pressures per the sticker.

Now I don’t doubt you’re a pro hypermiler and incorporate many fuel-saving techniques into your driving style, yet the fact remains you are consistently able to get at least 10% better figures than the rest of us who watch such things (therefore it is reasonable to assume that “us” drive more economically than most). This plus the fact that I get different results from two near-identically spec’d cars leads me to conclude there may be something else mechanical in it that can vary from one car to another. I think this TV setting could account for some of that. @Edwrai - have you ever checked what TV your engine is set to run at? Could you check next time you have VCDS hooked up?

I will be fitting Audrey with one a @depronman EGR housing next time I have my cambelt done, as I do believe that will help also.
 
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DuncanA2 said:
As I mentioned, there is only one way to find out. Did you measure your TV before the cambelt replacement? If you did you know your consumption figures from experience. If not than I would set to TV 0,0 and then experience in advance and retarded direction lto find that sweet spot.

I made one mistake. If you shift the TV in advanced direction (-) than you will gain torque in the upper RPM regions instead of lower regions. So shifting in retarded direction (+) will gain torque in the lower RPM regions . Some find +2,2 a good setting.

Retarded is changing the center camshaft bolt counterclockwise. Pay attention not to overtighten the three smaller bolts as they can break. Tighten them to 25Nm or 18 ft lb.
Click to expand...
Having read an article on my turbo diesel which come up as a link when viewing other links on this thread it states that above 0 is advanced and below is retarded and also to go advanced turn the camshaft by using the 18mm bolt head clockwise?

Mine is retarded meaning better top end when i want better lower end and hopefully better FE.

Wife commented saving car feels "heavier" which i guess is not as spritly
 
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Mini update

Tried adjusting the cam by turning 18mm head clockwise this seemed to make the reading go more retarded -2.2, so turned anti clockwise (just as DuncanA2 had said), moved a fair bit and this seems to now be reading 2.2 which i take it as advanced, coolant temp was below 80 around 65 so i need to confirm readings when proper engine coolant temp is reached but although 0.0 to 0.5 to 1.0 is the optimum i am hoping to try around 2.0 as already mentioned 2.2 is a sweet spot for some!

Daughter has Brownies so all a mad dash lol!!
 
From what I've read of all the threads on this subject, there is no ideal setting that is guaranteed to work exactly the same / work well for any engine of even the same code! You have to adjust it by trial and error.

Do keep us informed.
 
Audi made the TV adjustable to I assume account for manufacturing tolerances. Now as the engine wears, carbon builds up, injectors become less efficient, then EACH car may well have its own sweet spot within the available adjustment range. This can well become the area that can "compensate" by adjusting timing values good and bad.

Very much not going to be a "one size fits all" solution. Fuel quality could have a greater effect than the timing.
 
dj_efk said:
From what I've read of all the threads on this subject, there is no ideal setting that is guaranteed to work exactly the same / work well for any engine of even the same code! You have to adjust it by trial and error.

Do keep us informed.
Click to expand...
Ohh yes theres certainly no holy grail, will take a few pics when i get chance to connect vcds, only time will really tell! Wish i had read the reading prior changing the belt lol! (Thats if it was perfect before who knows?)
 
dj_efk said:
From what I've read of all the threads on this subject, there is no ideal setting that is guaranteed to work exactly the same / work well for any engine of even the same code! You have to adjust it by trial and error.

Do keep us informed.
Click to expand...
Have any of your injectors on Akoya or Audrey been removed, cleaned, refurbed and replaced? I've got redone injectors on my AMF project car and it definitely runs / starts better and seems smoother across the board, although currently running on my winter map on winter tyres.
 
dj_efk said:
Yes I know - this figure is abnormally good from literally almost everyone else with an ATL. You have previously stated you don’t drive slowly, just keep to the speed limits when cruising, which I do as well:

In Akoya, I can just about get to 63mpg over a tank if it has been all long journeys and I try really hard for all of that time.

In Audrey, I can’t get quite as good figures, despite their specs being identical (apart from Audrey having the @timmus intercooler and a PTW instead of a MYP, both of which combined should, if anything, help rather than hinder consumption figures. Both cars have working thermostats and temp sensors, both cars are freshly serviced, both cars are on the same wheels (pepperpots) and high efficiency tyres set to full load pressures per the sticker.

Now I don’t doubt you’re a pro hypermiler and incorporate many fuel-saving techniques into your driving style, yet the fact remains you are consistently able to get at least 10% better figures than the rest of us who watch such things (therefore it is reasonable to assume that “us” drive more economically than most). This plus the fact that I get different results from two near-identically spec’d cars leads me to conclude there may be something else mechanical in it that can vary from one car to another. I think this TV setting could account for some of that. @Edwrai - have you ever checked what TV your engine is set to run at? Could you check next time you have VCDS hooked up?

I will be fitting Audrey with one a @depronman EGR housing next time I have my cambelt done, as I do believe that will help also.
Click to expand...

Take a look at Fuelly, this is a very good source of this data.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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