Another one bites the dust, (pressed wishbone failure)

[Sootywg]

Well it worked, the arm pressed in but my word it was still quit an effort. The long bolt torqued to 70Nm + 90deg no problem. Surprisingly when working the arm up and down it looks as thought the hex rotates within the bush.
Replaced the disc splash guard using stainless replacement bolts (old ones were a PITA to get out.
Do I do the near side now! It looks pretty solid and hammering it does not indicate any severe corrosion however I want to get it done.
Started to ease the long bolt and it seems even stiffer than the off side one. I can sense some twisting of the bolt and fear it might fracture. Presumably if it does fracture, the arm will still be removable with the console no matter where the fracture occurs?
Now that the car is drivable I am tempted to take it to the garage and let them take the pain (I just take the financial pain)

 

[Joga]

. Surprisingly when working the arm up and down it looks as thought the hex rotates within the bush.

Could it be that you still had some particles of grease in the rubber hexagon hole, or did you degrease it thorougly before assemby?

 

[Little Dog]

Started to ease the long bolt and it seems even stiffer than the off side one. I can sense some twisting of the bolt and fear it might fracture. Presumably if it does fracture, the arm will still be removable with the console no matter where the fracture occurs?

Yes the console can be removed with the arm still attached. Try to avoid doing the job this way, pinning doesn’t work well due to corrosion (and I think you have to remove both sides so two sets of pins are required?). If pinning fails you will need the geometry resetting.

 

[Sootywg]

Could it be that you still had some particles of grease in the rubber hexagon hole, or did you degrease it thorougly before assemby?

Possible but it was cleaned and only washing up liquid used as a lube

 

[Sootywg]

Yes the console can be removed with the arm still attached. Try to avoid doing the job this way, pinning doesn’t work well due to corrosion (and I think you have to remove both sides so two sets of pins are required?). If pinning fails you will need the geometry resetting.

Not heard of having to undo both sides, certainly if you do then the subframe is completely loose.

 

[Little Dog]

Not heard of having to undo both sides, certainly if you do then the subframe is completely loose.

From memory doesn’t the console fit inside the sub frame? If so you could remove one side by pulling it out sideways but then you have lost your geometry. Pin the console and it has to come straight down with whatever is attached to it.

 

[Sootywg]

Well it worked, the arm pressed in but my word it was still quit an effort. The long bolt torqued to 70Nm + 90deg no problem. Surprisingly when working the arm up and down it looks as thought the hex rotates within the bush.
Replaced the disc splash guard using stainless replacement bolts (old ones were a PITA to get out.
Do I do the near side now! It looks pretty solid and hammering it does not indicate any severe corrosion however I want to get it done.
Started to ease the long bolt and it seems even stiffer than the off side one. I can sense some twisting of the bolt and fear it might fracture. Presumably if it does fracture, the arm will still be removable with the console no matter where the fracture occurs?
Now that the car is drivable I am tempted to take it to the garage and let them take the pain (I just take the financial pain)

Thinking on this overnight brings a few things to mind.

1) Should the new long bolt have been torqued up with the vehicle on the ground with the suspension compressed and the bush in its neutral position. Torquing it as I have will leave the bush pre-stressed sitting on the ground?

2) Taking it to the garage to do the near side sounds defeatist, besides I am sure they would simply wind out the long bolt and probably strip the thread in the Console, or it will fracture. Eiither way I will be told I need a new console. (No longer available).
So I was thinking, is there any way of preserving the thread in the console and still dismantle the assembly?
Has anyone taken this approach?
a) Cut the head off the long bolt (before it has damaged too much of the thread in the console)
b) Remove the console and drop the complete assembly off to work on the bench
c) Press out the the arm from the rear bush
d) The console now has the remains of the long bolt as a ‘stud’. Rather than screwing it out, I am considering if it can be screwed ‘in’ to expose the corroded bolt threads out the back of the casting. This can then be cleaned and then reversed back out. Unfortunately as the original bolts are not threaded the full length, they cannot be screwed all the way out the back without cutting off at the end of the unthreaded section.

The only problem I can see with this approach is being able to apply sufficient torque to the headless bolt.
If this was to fail I will be looking for a used Near Side console with a decent thread still in it. Or do I go for the Polo Console that people are saying is identical (I need convincing of this).

The wisdom of this wonderful forum is sought.

Geoff

 

[Sootywg]

From memory doesn’t the console fit inside the sub frame? If so you could remove one side by pulling it out sideways but then you have lost your geometry. Pin the console and it has to come straight down with whatever is attached to it.

Not having removed a console I can only go by what I have read. Yes I believe the console has to be slid out from the sub-frame. (As you point out I believe this negates the possibility of using the location pins) Hence why people say to mark the existing location before removal)

 

[PlasticMac]

Thinking on this overnight brings a few things to mind.

1) Should the new long bolt have been torqued up with the vehicle on the ground with the suspension compressed and the bush in its neutral position. Torquing it as I have will leave the bush pre-stressed sitting on the ground?

2) Taking it to the garage to do the near side sounds defeatist, besides I am sure they would simply wind out the long bolt and probably strip the thread in the Console, or it will fracture. Eiither way I will be told I need a new console. (No longer available).
So I was thinking, is there any way of preserving the thread in the console and still dismantle the assembly?
Has anyone taken this approach?
a) Cut the head off the long bolt (before it has damaged too much of the thread in the console)
b) Remove the console and drop the complete assembly off to work on the bench
c) Press out the the arm from the rear bush
d) The console now has the remains of the long bolt as a ‘stud’. Rather than screwing it out, I am considering if it can be screwed ‘in’ to expose the corroded bolt threads out the back of the casting. This can then be cleaned and then reversed back out. Unfortunately as the original bolts are not threaded the full length, they cannot be screwed all the way out the back without cutting off at the end of the unthreaded section.

The only problem I can see with this approach is being able to apply sufficient torque to the headless bolt.
If this was to fail I will be looking for a used Near Side console with a decent thread still in it. Or do I go for the Polo Console that people are saying is identical (I need convincing of this).

The wisdom of this wonderful forum is sought.

Geoff

I think it should be torqued with the wheels on the ground, and suspension loaded up.
Mac.

 

[Little Dog]

Not having removed a console I can only go by what I have read. Yes I believe the console has to be slid out from the sub-frame. (As you point out I believe this negates the possibility of using the location pins) Hence why people say to mark the existing location before removal)

Let us know how you get on with the marking up please.
Yes the suspension should be in its loaded position when you torque up. This is not great practice but I jack it to the level position with the wheel off so I have full access to torque up.
The only option I aware of to avoid female thread damage is to drive the corroded section of bolt out of the open end and cut it off. You will probably need to weld a nut on to create a headed bolt. I guess you have a second new bolt? Measuring the length of male thread will determine if this approach is possible.
Edit. A good sized stud extractor may drive the headless bolt in both directions

 

[Joga]

I wonder how much one would be helped by heating the once removed console with screw remaints up to 400-500C (or whatever is a safe margin from the melting point of the console) ? Aluminium does expand more than steel so it might work.

 

[Sootywg]

I wonder how much one would be helped by heating the once removed console with screw remaints up to 400-500C (or whatever is a safe margin from the melting point of the console) ? Aluminium does expand more than steel so it might work.

It might be worth a try but what are the consequences on the structural strength of the casting if heated in such a way?
Many aluminium castings are heat treated to improve both their strength and corrosion resistance. If that has already been done to these casting might it be deleterious to heat them again?

Why Heat Treat Aluminium Castings?

We are often asked what the advantages are when aluminium castings are heat treated. Heat treating aluminum castings is a crucial process that imparts

draycast.co.uk

 

[audifan]

From the manual...

Bonded rubber bushes can only be turned to a limited extent. The bolt connections on the suspension links should therefore only be tightened when the vehicle is standing on the ground.

 

[Joga]

It might be worth a try but what are the consequences on the structural strength of the casting if heated in such a way?
Many aluminium castings are heat treated to improve both their strength and corrosion resistance. If that has already been done to these casting might it be deleterious to heat them again?

Why Heat Treat Aluminium Castings?

We are often asked what the advantages are when aluminium castings are heat treated. Heat treating aluminum castings is a crucial process that imparts

draycast.co.uk

Interesting. Every day is a learning day. I am not sure if the car industry would see the need to add heat treatment to these consoles in production. It is all about cost vs required material performance.
Perhaps we have a metallurgist with insight in high volume automotive industry (or other knowledges) here?

 

[Sootywg]

Thinking on this overnight brings a few things to mind.

1) Should the new long bolt have been torqued up with the vehicle on the ground with the suspension compressed and the bush in its neutral position. Torquing it as I have will leave the bush pre-stressed sitting on the ground?

2) Taking it to the garage to do the near side sounds defeatist, besides I am sure they would simply wind out the long bolt and probably strip the thread in the Console, or it will fracture. Eiither way I will be told I need a new console. (No longer available).
So I was thinking, is there any way of preserving the thread in the console and still dismantle the assembly?
Has anyone taken this approach?
a) Cut the head off the long bolt (before it has damaged too much of the thread in the console)
b) Remove the console and drop the complete assembly off to work on the bench
c) Press out the the arm from the rear bush
d) The console now has the remains of the long bolt as a ‘stud’. Rather than screwing it out, I am considering if it can be screwed ‘in’ to expose the corroded bolt threads out the back of the casting. This can then be cleaned and then reversed back out. Unfortunately as the original bolts are not threaded the full length, they cannot be screwed all the way out the back without cutting off at the end of the unthreaded section.

The only problem I can see with this approach is being able to apply sufficient torque to the headless bolt.
If this was to fail I will be looking for a used Near Side console with a decent thread still in it. Or do I go for the Polo Console that people are saying is identical (I need convincing of this).

The wisdom of this wonderful forum is sought.

Geoff

The nearside long bolt remains in place and requires excessive force to make it move (with large cracking noises). I attempted to remove the console bolts but these also require excessive force and a longer breaker bar than I have.Being on axle stands makes me nervous when using such force, a car lift is the way forward hence the garage option is now the way to go (otherwise I can see myself with a car on axle stands and a broken suspension I cannot remove). With thanks to Andy @Clackers for supplying a nearside console with good thread for the long bolt I can give the garage a complete arm and console assembly knowing that if they with strip the thread or snap the bolt they should be able to swap over the assembly without the delay of sourcing a new console.

 

[Chris Warren]

I wonder how much one would be helped by heating the once removed console with screw remaints up to 400-500C (or whatever is a safe margin from the melting point of the console) ? Aluminium does expand more than steel so it might work.

I tried this-typically bolt snapped so I removed the whole assembly from the subframe. Took it to my lovely engineers vice, clamped it and used my blowtorch to play some heat around the threaded area. I had already ground two opposing flats on the remaining shaft of the bolt so quickly spun it around and then clamped that in the vice and tried turning the whole lot to unscrew it from the casting. I even used a metal bar for more leverage. Not a chance, they seize solid in there. So I took it to a mate who drilled out the old bolt and fitted a helicoil insert.

 

[Pie-eyedpiper]

I hate to sound like a scratched record, but I less you're desperate to keep the originality, swap the subframe/console set up for a PQ 25 subframe and pressed steel wishbones.
It's a cheap remedy, and future proofs the car.

 

[Sootywg]

I hate to sound like a scratched record, but I less you're desperate to keep the originality, swap the subframe/console set up for a PQ 25 subframe and pressed steel wishbones.
It's a cheap remedy, and future proofs the car.

Do we have any experience of the ride characteristics of this alternative set up? Presumably the bushing is for the Polo.
If so then using the Polo/SEAT/Skoda Consoles (VWAG 600 199 293D which fit the A2 but with a different rear bush size and stiffness) would produce a similar result without replacing the subframe, which for the home mechanics amongst us would be an easier replacement.

 

[Pie-eyedpiper]

Do we have any experience of the ride characteristics of this alternative set up? Presumably the bushing is for the Polo.
If so then using the Polo/SEAT/Skoda Consoles (VWAG 600 199 293D which fit the A2 but with a different rear bush size and stiffness) would produce a similar result without replacing the subframe, which for the home mechanics amongst us would be an easier replacement.

That maybe so, but the A1/Fabia/Ibiza subframe (PQ25) doesn't use consoles, so you don't have any issues relating to them. Just easy to change pressed steel wishbones, and replaceable ball joints.
It rides as good as ever, but maybe added precision. But then all my suspension components were the originals, so a refresh has probably helped anyway.

Seriously changing the subframe is no big deal, if you're stripping the front end down anyway.

 

[Stan H]

900g heavier.

View attachment 119960

A few questions on this. I have a 2003 TDI SE.
I changed over to cast wishbones last year but I'm interested in this.
Do you know what front subframe and wishbones would be used as replacements?
Also do you have the part No's for both?
I have seen some subframes on eBay but there are variations so are the petrol and diesel different or is in models / years?
Cheers
Stan.