KONI FSD'S or BILSTEIN B6'S
- Thread starter sojah
- Start date
bretti_kivi
Member
I'm going to add something else here to stir the pie a little, and I'll be referring to Koni and asking for their comments (especially as I'll publish this again in German shortly).
I have now had the FSDs on for something like 40 thousand kms over just under 3 years (3 years in October, I believe). I swapped tyres out three weeks ago as there were issues with the Uniroyals.
Background information:
- I got a warning / advisory equivalent (verbal!) at my last Katsastus / MoT that the rear shocks were "near the limit".
- The new tyres are Hakka Blues. Low rolling resistance. *very* stiff sidewalls.
The FSD performance today was truly crap. It was awful going up, it was great "popping to the pharmacy" (which involved an hour's drive) and back home, then today on the way home was awful again *in places*.
Let's start from the beginning: I like my driving. I tend to do most of my kms here on roads which would in the UK be considered B or C class; poor macadam, crumbled surfaces, minimal potholes but lots of bumps. The roadbeds move during the winter and so the configuration of the road will change from one summer to another.
I regularly drive a couple of stretches from home to the summer house. Favoured route goes Lahti - Joutsa - Kangasniemi - Pieksämäki - Suonenjoki - Karttula and from there towards Pielävesi before turning towards Talluskylä.
The main roads on that lot stop at Joutsa, which is an hour out from here and 2.25 hours away from the destination. As of there, it's backroads.
So I'm looking for control and cohesion, with a huge dose of consistency.
I get lots and lots of different bump types; the rapid humps, the single dips, the single humps, the surface falling away after a bridge, with combinations of all of the above and several vicious mid-curve bumps. We also flew today without any warning.
The car was loaded on Friday and today, probably 100kg in the boot and three-up. The trip to the pharmacy (lice!) was just me. My wife had driven the last section on Friday and the suspension bottomed-out more than I've ever heard. Probably ten times in as many kilometres, and she was driving relatively slowly (it's limited to 80).
I then hoofed it back down on Friday to get to the pharmacy before it closed and it was great fun. The feel was wooden when loaded but empty, the car came alive again. We'd covered a lot of the final stretch at 50 and 60 and I was pelting back over it with 80+ and nothing happened. Not a single bottom-out with just me. I was absolutely astonished at sections that I know are bad - you can see the rumples in the tarmac from a distance - and just mild rumples in the ride, that was it. Very, very nice.
The way home today was strange. We were being reasonably rapid, but it was fine.. steering round potholes and humps as usual. And then we flew, which took me completely by suprise. The drop-off after a bridge confirmed it: the FSDs on my car no longer allowed compression correctly. They were stiff as hell on bumps that push upwards or when the car is dropping downwards. This is valid as of about 60 km/h up to 100 or so. That the wheels drop nicely into the holes is irrelevant, as we get the thump when they are pushed back out again. I don't have a specific speed / frequency for this, but I suspect it's the low frequency stuff that is no longer correctly damped.
The temperatures on Friday were higher (20) and today it was only 12 and raining when we left. I suspect very, very strongly that this is temperature dependent and it will be OK with higher loads and lower temps, but the trip to Germany may well be quite thumpy.
This has disappointed me, to say the least, so much so that I think I'm going to change my recommendations. Yes, this has also shown up just how much the Uniroyals used to do, but consider that I've now done 320kms and we're just under 1/2 a tank. My average is down to 5.8l/100, 49mpg, without particularly trying. That's around 100kms more per tank than I got with the Uniroyals - that's a huge difference for just changing tyres IMO.
So, why do I think the performance was crap?
- Wooden is not good enough. I was expecting some kind of softness. And please, don't tell me that the Eibachs are at fault, because all I've done is changed tyres for ones with less give. I'm expecting the shocks to take that, and as far as I'm concerned, the Eibachs aren't that stiff.
- What's annoyed me more than that, though, is the inconsistency both between days and laden / unladen. Seriously, I drove the same roads twice in three days, second time slower, and yet we fly then and not when I'm on my own?
I'm unimpressed and will be very annoyed if the shocks need replacing in the winter (I'll get the test done early this time, just so I've got time to argue if I need to).
- Bret
I have now had the FSDs on for something like 40 thousand kms over just under 3 years (3 years in October, I believe). I swapped tyres out three weeks ago as there were issues with the Uniroyals.
Background information:
- I got a warning / advisory equivalent (verbal!) at my last Katsastus / MoT that the rear shocks were "near the limit".
- The new tyres are Hakka Blues. Low rolling resistance. *very* stiff sidewalls.
The FSD performance today was truly crap. It was awful going up, it was great "popping to the pharmacy" (which involved an hour's drive) and back home, then today on the way home was awful again *in places*.
Let's start from the beginning: I like my driving. I tend to do most of my kms here on roads which would in the UK be considered B or C class; poor macadam, crumbled surfaces, minimal potholes but lots of bumps. The roadbeds move during the winter and so the configuration of the road will change from one summer to another.
I regularly drive a couple of stretches from home to the summer house. Favoured route goes Lahti - Joutsa - Kangasniemi - Pieksämäki - Suonenjoki - Karttula and from there towards Pielävesi before turning towards Talluskylä.
The main roads on that lot stop at Joutsa, which is an hour out from here and 2.25 hours away from the destination. As of there, it's backroads.
So I'm looking for control and cohesion, with a huge dose of consistency.
I get lots and lots of different bump types; the rapid humps, the single dips, the single humps, the surface falling away after a bridge, with combinations of all of the above and several vicious mid-curve bumps. We also flew today without any warning.
The car was loaded on Friday and today, probably 100kg in the boot and three-up. The trip to the pharmacy (lice!) was just me. My wife had driven the last section on Friday and the suspension bottomed-out more than I've ever heard. Probably ten times in as many kilometres, and she was driving relatively slowly (it's limited to 80).
I then hoofed it back down on Friday to get to the pharmacy before it closed and it was great fun. The feel was wooden when loaded but empty, the car came alive again. We'd covered a lot of the final stretch at 50 and 60 and I was pelting back over it with 80+ and nothing happened. Not a single bottom-out with just me. I was absolutely astonished at sections that I know are bad - you can see the rumples in the tarmac from a distance - and just mild rumples in the ride, that was it. Very, very nice.
The way home today was strange. We were being reasonably rapid, but it was fine.. steering round potholes and humps as usual. And then we flew, which took me completely by suprise. The drop-off after a bridge confirmed it: the FSDs on my car no longer allowed compression correctly. They were stiff as hell on bumps that push upwards or when the car is dropping downwards. This is valid as of about 60 km/h up to 100 or so. That the wheels drop nicely into the holes is irrelevant, as we get the thump when they are pushed back out again. I don't have a specific speed / frequency for this, but I suspect it's the low frequency stuff that is no longer correctly damped.
The temperatures on Friday were higher (20) and today it was only 12 and raining when we left. I suspect very, very strongly that this is temperature dependent and it will be OK with higher loads and lower temps, but the trip to Germany may well be quite thumpy.
This has disappointed me, to say the least, so much so that I think I'm going to change my recommendations. Yes, this has also shown up just how much the Uniroyals used to do, but consider that I've now done 320kms and we're just under 1/2 a tank. My average is down to 5.8l/100, 49mpg, without particularly trying. That's around 100kms more per tank than I got with the Uniroyals - that's a huge difference for just changing tyres IMO.
So, why do I think the performance was crap?
- Wooden is not good enough. I was expecting some kind of softness. And please, don't tell me that the Eibachs are at fault, because all I've done is changed tyres for ones with less give. I'm expecting the shocks to take that, and as far as I'm concerned, the Eibachs aren't that stiff.
- What's annoyed me more than that, though, is the inconsistency both between days and laden / unladen. Seriously, I drove the same roads twice in three days, second time slower, and yet we fly then and not when I'm on my own?
I'm unimpressed and will be very annoyed if the shocks need replacing in the winter (I'll get the test done early this time, just so I've got time to argue if I need to).
- Bret
bretti_kivi
Member
Another point: I now get vicious tramlining on occasion and going over the crest for an overtake is a lot more interesting than it used to be. I did three in rapid succession on one long straight today (they were all doing 75 in an 80 limit for some bizarre reason...) and each time there was a distinct pull to deal with when each wheel found the peak of the camber.
- Bret
- Bret
andybaggies
A2OC Donor
Bret - I’m certainly not going to tout myself as suspension expert but here are my thoughts FWIW.
As the only thing you have changed are the tyres then the tyres have be the prime suspect. One thing I have learnt during my months of suspension related research is having the springs (rate) matched with the dampers is critical which then must be suited to the characteristics of the tyre and unsprung weight.
I’m wondering if the introduction of the very stiff tyre wall has changed this balance to such a degree you are now seeing the issues you mention. It seems logical that a stiffer tyre wall will increase the overall suspension spring rate and hence give more for the damper to do. And what with your dampers having a warning perhaps this has been sufficient for them to be pushed beyond their capabilities (and even into failure?).
So, yes the springs are probably where the fault lies – but only with this particular combination of tyre & worn dampers. As for the flying, leaving the ground I assume, is this not just down to the extra weight and hence inertia that is proving too much for the spring/damper combo. Just an extreme case of the overall difficulties you are experiencing.
Increased tram lining is a direct result of a stiffer tyre wall as the reduced flex allows road irregularities to be applied to the wheel rim rather than being absorbed.
Cheers,
[FONT="]Andy B[/FONT]
As the only thing you have changed are the tyres then the tyres have be the prime suspect. One thing I have learnt during my months of suspension related research is having the springs (rate) matched with the dampers is critical which then must be suited to the characteristics of the tyre and unsprung weight.
I’m wondering if the introduction of the very stiff tyre wall has changed this balance to such a degree you are now seeing the issues you mention. It seems logical that a stiffer tyre wall will increase the overall suspension spring rate and hence give more for the damper to do. And what with your dampers having a warning perhaps this has been sufficient for them to be pushed beyond their capabilities (and even into failure?).
So, yes the springs are probably where the fault lies – but only with this particular combination of tyre & worn dampers. As for the flying, leaving the ground I assume, is this not just down to the extra weight and hence inertia that is proving too much for the spring/damper combo. Just an extreme case of the overall difficulties you are experiencing.
Increased tram lining is a direct result of a stiffer tyre wall as the reduced flex allows road irregularities to be applied to the wheel rim rather than being absorbed.
Cheers,
[FONT="]Andy B[/FONT]
bretti_kivi
Member
I'll agree 100% on the tramlining. That's one of the reasons I was sure that the flex in the tyre is gone.
Another point is that the pressures are pretty high right now and I think I'll drop them again to 2.3 / 2.1 and see what happens; 2.5 all round at the moment. Maybe 2.4/2.7 might be good fully loaded? Will have to ask Nokian for a recommendation.
The other "issue" is that these are going to be some of the lightest wheel / tyre combinations around, with the wheel at around 6.5kg and I suspect the combo is less than 13, I'll weigh one at the next opportunity. This might well fool the strut; the average is probably close on 33% higher.
Today, two up and empty, life was really rather good. I'll change the pressures and see what happens.
Failure of dampers with a lifetime guarantee after only three years is kind of depressing, though....
- Bret
Another point is that the pressures are pretty high right now and I think I'll drop them again to 2.3 / 2.1 and see what happens; 2.5 all round at the moment. Maybe 2.4/2.7 might be good fully loaded? Will have to ask Nokian for a recommendation.
The other "issue" is that these are going to be some of the lightest wheel / tyre combinations around, with the wheel at around 6.5kg and I suspect the combo is less than 13, I'll weigh one at the next opportunity. This might well fool the strut; the average is probably close on 33% higher.
Today, two up and empty, life was really rather good. I'll change the pressures and see what happens.
Failure of dampers with a lifetime guarantee after only three years is kind of depressing, though....
- Bret
dan_b
A2OC Donor
I agree and that's the disappointing thing. Whilst I imagine your road and driving conditions are rather more "extreme" than what many would be used to, you'd still not expect a premium-priced, brand-named item to cough up like that in such a short space of time, even if it's covered by a lifetime warranty.
bretti_kivi
Member
the tone in the voice of the tyre guy was also amusing - he did a vocal double take along the lines of "Konis? Really, Konis? No, can't be!".
I think at the moment, I'll be spending some of the Monday I have "free" in Germany going to Poohlpower and asking some questions / requesting some testing. Then we can see what happens next.
- Bret
I think at the moment, I'll be spending some of the Monday I have "free" in Germany going to Poohlpower and asking some questions / requesting some testing. Then we can see what happens next.
- Bret
I must admit after having them on for the first 4-5 months they did feel great because everything was new and thought this is what the car needed, and as they wore in and driving around the different types of streets in brum that sumed things up for me that there not as good as i thought.
With the wife and kids and a full holiday load they are smooth on the motorways even with 17'' on and even better with 16'' but when the crashing effect started again i did want them off, so bit of a blessing really when they did blow and had them replaced.
With the wife and kids and a full holiday load they are smooth on the motorways even with 17'' on and even better with 16'' but when the crashing effect started again i did want them off, so bit of a blessing really when they did blow and had them replaced.
itsmeagain
Past Member
Did you get Audi to fit them matey?
Not yet itsmeagain, i'm booked in for Thursday and they said they will see what they can do as it's not something they usually take on but they will look after me they said. I also get a car to use, i asked for an A1 four door but they said they can't promise anything.
Looking on these Bilsteins they seem to be well made and are heavier than the Koni's with a lot more stiffness to them, i think these will work well but i think 30mm springs all round will need to be fitted as my OE sports will probably raise the back up a bit.
I think the trial and error part of this is going to be sourcing some good springs, i had a heads up from john-wingnut on some FK springs for £20 but couldn't decide and now i've looked at the site again and i think they might have gone as i can't find them.... oh well the search continues!!!!
http://www.carparts-tuning.co.uk/index.php?&redirected=1
Looking on these Bilsteins they seem to be well made and are heavier than the Koni's with a lot more stiffness to them, i think these will work well but i think 30mm springs all round will need to be fitted as my OE sports will probably raise the back up a bit.
I think the trial and error part of this is going to be sourcing some good springs, i had a heads up from john-wingnut on some FK springs for £20 but couldn't decide and now i've looked at the site again and i think they might have gone as i can't find them.... oh well the search continues!!!!
http://www.carparts-tuning.co.uk/index.php?&redirected=1
bretti_kivi
Member
I will be calling a company tomorrrow to talk about testing my FSDs. If I can get them tested and replaced if defective, then great, I'll do that. I might also try to get the front springs pressed so I'm even at the front and back, though that will mean minmal ground clearance. It's bad enough already!
- Bret
- Bret
andybaggies
A2OC Donor
Woo Hoo !! My B6s have arrived and only a month after ordering them from EuroPerf...
Excitement is close to unbounded at the moment and what with them being at home and me at work I'm not sure I'll get much done this afternoon.
Will start a new thread with pics etc when I've calmed down.
Andy B
Excitement is close to unbounded at the moment and what with them being at home and me at work I'm not sure I'll get much done this afternoon.
Will start a new thread with pics etc when I've calmed down.
Andy B
bretti_kivi
Member
quick update from my side:
Koni Germany said "call HQ". Koni NL said "Maybe, but it needs to be tested. Call local importer". Local importer in Helsinki says "we can test, but it needs to be off the car and we'll only give you something off a replacement if there's an issue".
Larkspeed say "well, you're lowered, therefore you're probably at fault".
Thing is, though, that the Eibachs are allegedly only -20mm and Koni say fine to -25mm.
OTOH, if there's weight in the boot, that would explain why there's no performance at that point, as in the FSDs are then at maximum and the tyre doesn't take up the excess, so the damper is asked to damp and it can't.
I need to play with some tyre pressures before I do much else.
- Bret
Koni Germany said "call HQ". Koni NL said "Maybe, but it needs to be tested. Call local importer". Local importer in Helsinki says "we can test, but it needs to be off the car and we'll only give you something off a replacement if there's an issue".
Larkspeed say "well, you're lowered, therefore you're probably at fault".
Thing is, though, that the Eibachs are allegedly only -20mm and Koni say fine to -25mm.
OTOH, if there's weight in the boot, that would explain why there's no performance at that point, as in the FSDs are then at maximum and the tyre doesn't take up the excess, so the damper is asked to damp and it can't.
I need to play with some tyre pressures before I do much else.
- Bret
Yeeahh!!!!!!! Great result, mate you wouldnt be disappointed, they do look quality and feel like a quality shock too.
Mine went into Audi yesterday evening for the dual mass flywheel and they said they can fit my shocks but i don't have the springs i ordered yet.
They have given me a courtesy car........ A3 convertible with loads of toys. I'm trying to get used to the stop/start as it turns the engine off when you come to a stop for more than 10 sec and you tkae you foot of the clutch, but there is a slight delay as you dip the clutch and select first to move off. I'm not complaining as yesterday evenings weather was on point, can't say much for today though . They said not to be too disapointed if my car isn't ready for Friday as they have to order the flywheel, i just looked with a straight face and said "that's ok, i'll just wait for your call" LOOOOO....
HOPE THE WEATHERS GOOD THE WEEKED!!!
Mine went into Audi yesterday evening for the dual mass flywheel and they said they can fit my shocks but i don't have the springs i ordered yet.
They have given me a courtesy car........ A3 convertible
with loads of toys. I'm trying to get used to the stop/start as it turns the engine off when you come to a stop for more than 10 sec and you tkae you foot of the clutch, but there is a slight delay as you dip the clutch and select first to move off. I'm not complaining as yesterday evenings weather was on point, can't say much for today though . They said not to be too disapointed if my car isn't ready for Friday as they have to order the flywheel, i just looked with a straight face and said "that's ok, i'll just wait for your call" LOOOOO.... HOPE THE WEATHERS GOOD THE WEEKED!!!
andybaggies
A2OC Donor
And who decides the definition and cause of an issue?
There's a lot of hassle taking them off and sending them back which wasn't too bad in my case, but there is the underlining fact that they could reject them and your stuck with faulty shocks. If they state lowering spring compatible and there is a lifetime warranty on them then i would send them back, they say they only change the defected shock but why should you accept a brand new shock to use with used ones??!!
bretti_kivi
Member
right, which is why I'm trying to work out what to do next. I will contact a competent Koni guy on Monday (spoke to the company today, he's on holiday until then) and discuss if there's a possibility to replace immediately should something be found to be wrong. I'm prepared to put *some* time and effort into this, but there's a limit.
I'll have to do the research to see what the original installation cost me, I think it was €250.
Statement from Eibach: -20mm.
From Koni: ok to -25mm.
Should be pretty clear-cut.
Also just done some typical roads with 2.1/2.3 and it's crashy at the back even without load. I think it's the rears that are in a bad way, not necessarily the front.
- Bret
I'll have to do the research to see what the original installation cost me, I think it was €250.
Statement from Eibach: -20mm.
From Koni: ok to -25mm.
Should be pretty clear-cut.
Also just done some typical roads with 2.1/2.3 and it's crashy at the back even without load. I think it's the rears that are in a bad way, not necessarily the front.
- Bret
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andybaggies
A2OC Donor
Bumpstops?